4 ms·

"if you have two different kinds of machines, and you want to program each to compute the same result -- upper bounds on the program size on machine tell you no

by Jkeg 16y ago

"if you have two different kinds of machines, and you want to program each to compute the same result -- upper bounds on the program size on machine tell you nothing about the the upper bounds on the other machine." But the complexity of the zygote derives mostly from that 50MB of genome data, so Kurzweil's main point remains the same: the genome gives a rough estimate as to the maximum complexity of the human brain, which in this case includes the mechanism needed to build the brain.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
nooneelse 16y ago
> "But the complexity of the zygote derives mostly from that 50MB of genome data..." Wait.. does it? I'm rather tempted to think you are right, but here is my worry. I know that the data in the genome encodes proteins that are able to function through their interactions and feed-backs yadda yadda, so as to perform the following tasks: growing a cell, splitting a cell, altering cell structure/function. But notice that "creating a cell" wasn't on that list. The genome needs some minimally functional, pre-existing cell to be working in. That is something that the genome probably doesn't have the needed complexity to build "from scratch" as it were; it never has to do that job. So that pre-existing structure has some complexity, right? How does that compare to the 50MB?
- Jkeg 16y ago
  True, but my guess is that the extra-genomic data, the preexisting cell, is a trivial amount, since it's always only interpreting the genome and is itself built on an interpretation of a genome. Selection pressure has no reason to store a huge among of complexity outside of the genome after all. The bare minimum will do. As to how exactly that compares to the known 50MB, I've no answer but I'd guess it's an almost flat-rate amongst all species built by evolution.
dasht 16y ago
But the complexity of the zygote derives mostly from that 50MB of genome data, Uh.. no. There's at least 650 Million years worth of initializing the process memory and other threads into which the zygote is fork / exec'ed.
- Jkeg 16y ago
  Selection pressure creates the complexity. Aside from what is selected for (the ~50MB of genome), where does the extra complexity come from? Why is it there? There's no reason why selection pressure would concentrate any complexity in the extra-genomic data rather than the genome itself. In other words, most of the complexity of the initiator mechanisms is redundant in the genome itself, aside from that crucial bit to translate from genome to vehicle which is simply carried over trivially from one generation to the next. The rest is probably the substrate data, I.E. behavior of molecules in general.
  - dasht 16y ago
    As an example: What "state" that makes sense of the genome is encoded in, say, mitochondria? What "state" that makes sense of the human genome is stored in, say, symbiotic bacteria that we host? Does that make sense to you?
    - Jkeg 16y ago
      It is a reasonable assumption that the other genomes involved in human development are selected for as well, but don't drastically multiply the overall complexity of humans and especially not for the brain's design. Thus the issue is still how complex extra-genomic data is such as the preexisting cells which actuate DNA, which is what I addressed.

by Jkeg 16y ago

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

nooneelse 16y ago

> "But the complexity of the zygote derives mostly from that 50MB of genome data..." Wait.. does it? I'm rather tempted to think you are right, but here is my worry. I know that the data in the genome encodes proteins that are able to function through their interactions and feed-backs yadda yadda, so as to perform the following tasks: growing a cell, splitting a cell, altering cell structure/function. But notice that "creating a cell" wasn't on that list. The genome needs some minimally functional, pre-existing cell to be working in. That is something that the genome probably doesn't have the needed complexity to build "from scratch" as it were; it never has to do that job. So that pre-existing structure has some complexity, right? How does that compare to the 50MB?

Jkeg 16y ago
True, but my guess is that the extra-genomic data, the preexisting cell, is a trivial amount, since it's always only interpreting the genome and is itself built on an interpretation of a genome. Selection pressure has no reason to store a huge among of complexity outside of the genome after all. The bare minimum will do. As to how exactly that compares to the known 50MB, I've no answer but I'd guess it's an almost flat-rate amongst all species built by evolution.

dasht 16y ago

But the complexity of the zygote derives mostly from that 50MB of genome data, Uh.. no. There's at least 650 Million years worth of initializing the process memory and other threads into which the zygote is fork / exec'ed.

Jkeg 16y ago
Selection pressure creates the complexity. Aside from what is selected for (the ~50MB of genome), where does the extra complexity come from? Why is it there? There's no reason why selection pressure would concentrate any complexity in the extra-genomic data rather than the genome itself. In other words, most of the complexity of the initiator mechanisms is redundant in the genome itself, aside from that crucial bit to translate from genome to vehicle which is simply carried over trivially from one generation to the next. The rest is probably the substrate data, I.E. behavior of molecules in general.
- dasht 16y ago
  As an example: What "state" that makes sense of the genome is encoded in, say, mitochondria? What "state" that makes sense of the human genome is stored in, say, symbiotic bacteria that we host? Does that make sense to you?
  - Jkeg 16y ago
    It is a reasonable assumption that the other genomes involved in human development are selected for as well, but don't drastically multiply the overall complexity of humans and especially not for the brain's design. Thus the issue is still how complex extra-genomic data is such as the preexisting cells which actuate DNA, which is what I addressed.