6 ms·

In England, when private gun ownership was legal, contables used to carry batons. Now, private gun ownership is largely illegal, and police carry guns.

geofft 9y ago
I thought that gun ownership in England was restricted to special types of police, i.e., the average beat cop patrolling an area or pulling you over for speeding is unlikely to be armed, right? (Is this a language difference in "constable" vs. "police" vs. "cop" etc.?)
- xhedley 9y ago
  Indeed. Only 5% of police officers in England and Wales are Authorised Firearms Officers, and AFOs are only issued arms for specific operations. I was surprised that there were only 10 incidents where police shot their firearms in year ended March 2017 (although multiple officers might use their guns in a single incident). I guess some of the use of firearms is deterrence - a lot of police wandering round waving submachine guns at airports and stations when the terrorism threat is high. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/police-use-of-firearms-statistics-england-and-wales-april-2016-to-march-2017/police-use-of-firearms-statistics-england-and-wales-april-2016-to-march-2017 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/police-use-of-fir...
  - geofft 9y ago
    Wow, that's two orders of magnitude fewer than the number of people shot and killed in the US in 2017.
    - sokoloff 9y ago
      Three (decimal) orders of magnitude difference, I think. (15,586 firearm deaths in the US in 2017.)
      - geofft 9y ago
        Sorry, missed a "by police" there - the number seems to be 987. (May their souls rest in peace.)
- jimnotgym 9y ago
  I live in a quiet backwater of England with a low crime rate. I was very suprised, after a sad incident where a chap started waving a gun about, to read that some police who were on patrol did have firearms in the car (ie not a special SWAT team that we usually hear of). The incident ended up with a dead police man along with a dead perpetrator. Many felt that the policeman was rather gung-ho and if he had waited for proper armed support it might have saved his life
  - digi_owl 9y ago
    I do wonder, to UK police have a similar system to Norwegian police (that are in general also not armed) where there are handguns locked in the patrol car? They still have to radio in to get approval from the commanding officer before arming themselves though. BTW, in recent years there have been a "temporary" general arming of the Norwegian police that have lead to a bunch of incidents (most of them accidental discharges as the issues handgun do not have the typical safety, as they were not intended to be carried on the hip for extended periods) including one where a officer fired a warning shot into the air...
- tialaramex 9y ago
  Armed in the sense of with a firearm, tazer or similar? Yeah, you're right, only a minority of British cops are qualified for that and most wouldn't have them anyway unless they need them. But keep in mind in the UK all weapons are prohibited. Walking down the street waving a baseball bat in a threatening manner is a criminal offence in the UK. Any object that could reasonably be interpreted as a weapon needs a lawful excuse to carry it in public, and a bunch of objects that violent people tend to fixate on are just outright banned, there aren't any excuses permitted for those, you just can't have them in public at all. Thus having just the _same_ gear as the cop: pepper spray, an extensible baton and some hand cuffs, would get you in trouble here, never mind any sort of firearm. "Constable" is the legal term used in UK law to refer to police officers and give them special powers or immunities. A Detective Chief Inspector is still a Constable by this meaning, so is a Special Constable (volunteer spare time cop) but a Police Community Support Officer (cheaper fake cops with less training) is not a constable. Outside of statute law, ordinary people don't call them constables. British pop culture says the equivalent of a "get out of jail free" card would be membership of a Masonic Lodge. Police officers (in particular senior ranks) are supposed to be particularly likely to join the Masons, an esoteric order with a big emphasis on helping other members.
  - beaconstudios 9y ago
    just to add to your comment, in the UK it's prohibited to carry weapons openly. You can legally own a wide range of firearms but there are strict rules around when and where you can carry them and I believe (based on observation, not research) you're not allowed to take a weapon out of its carry case or bag outside of your home or a registered gun club. You can own a rifle and ammunition and keep them at home as long as you have a police-inspected gun safe for your weapon and a separate one for your ammunition and bolt.
djsumdog 9y ago
But there are also countries like NZ, where private gun ownership is legal, but NZ police do not carry firearms (some have firearms, but they are locked in the boots of their vehicles). In Australia and NZ, it's important to note that you must register each firearm and you need a reason. That reason can include pest control or sport, but it cannot be self defense. I think one of the biggest reasons firearms are not registered in the US is because the gun industry and the NRA lobby against it to keep guns flowing into South and Central America. I wrote about this a while back: http://fightthefuture.org/article/america-and-the-mexican-drug-trade/ http://fightthefuture.org/article/america-and-the-mexican-dr...
- digi_owl 9y ago
  In these discussions i find myself wondering how many of the firearms owned are pistols or something equally concealable, and how many are longarms(?). Norway similarly makes it relatively easy to own a rifle or shotgun for hunting. But it is that much harder to get a pistol. Best i recall, you need to have been a member of a target shooting club for some time before even being considered. And even then you are only permitted to transport it to and from the range, not general carry.
  - toomanybeersies 9y ago
    Pistols are very uncommon in New Zealand, the vast majority of firearms are longarms. The rules are similar to the ones you describe for Norway.
- HumanDrivenDev 9y ago
  NZ police will carry firearms on their persons in very specific circumstances, but it's not standard. There's also the "Armed Offenders Squad", maybe analogous to a SWAT team, who are armed. Don't know too much about them, you just hear them mentioned on the news when there's a gunman who has shot someone.
orf 9y ago
Police don't carry guns, except very specific units patrolling potential terrorist risk sites (i.e central-ish London). There are tactical units that can be called out, and are part of the police, but they don't patrol and are more like the SWAT than a "beat cop". Same for those very specific units to be honest.
beojan 9y ago
In England, very few police officers carry guns.

geofft 9y ago

I thought that gun ownership in England was restricted to special types of police, i.e., the average beat cop patrolling an area or pulling you over for speeding is unlikely to be armed, right? (Is this a language difference in "constable" vs. "police" vs. "cop" etc.?)

xhedley 9y ago
Indeed. Only 5% of police officers in England and Wales are Authorised Firearms Officers, and AFOs are only issued arms for specific operations. I was surprised that there were only 10 incidents where police shot their firearms in year ended March 2017 (although multiple officers might use their guns in a single incident). I guess some of the use of firearms is deterrence - a lot of police wandering round waving submachine guns at airports and stations when the terrorism threat is high. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/police-use-of-firearms-statistics-england-and-wales-april-2016-to-march-2017/police-use-of-firearms-statistics-england-and-wales-april-2016-to-march-2017 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/police-use-of-fir...
- geofft 9y ago
  Wow, that's two orders of magnitude fewer than the number of people shot and killed in the US in 2017.
  - sokoloff 9y ago
    Three (decimal) orders of magnitude difference, I think. (15,586 firearm deaths in the US in 2017.)
    - geofft 9y ago
      Sorry, missed a "by police" there - the number seems to be 987. (May their souls rest in peace.)
jimnotgym 9y ago
I live in a quiet backwater of England with a low crime rate. I was very suprised, after a sad incident where a chap started waving a gun about, to read that some police who were on patrol did have firearms in the car (ie not a special SWAT team that we usually hear of). The incident ended up with a dead police man along with a dead perpetrator. Many felt that the policeman was rather gung-ho and if he had waited for proper armed support it might have saved his life
- digi_owl 9y ago
  I do wonder, to UK police have a similar system to Norwegian police (that are in general also not armed) where there are handguns locked in the patrol car? They still have to radio in to get approval from the commanding officer before arming themselves though. BTW, in recent years there have been a "temporary" general arming of the Norwegian police that have lead to a bunch of incidents (most of them accidental discharges as the issues handgun do not have the typical safety, as they were not intended to be carried on the hip for extended periods) including one where a officer fired a warning shot into the air...
tialaramex 9y ago
Armed in the sense of with a firearm, tazer or similar? Yeah, you're right, only a minority of British cops are qualified for that and most wouldn't have them anyway unless they need them. But keep in mind in the UK all weapons are prohibited. Walking down the street waving a baseball bat in a threatening manner is a criminal offence in the UK. Any object that could reasonably be interpreted as a weapon needs a lawful excuse to carry it in public, and a bunch of objects that violent people tend to fixate on are just outright banned, there aren't any excuses permitted for those, you just can't have them in public at all. Thus having just the _same_ gear as the cop: pepper spray, an extensible baton and some hand cuffs, would get you in trouble here, never mind any sort of firearm. "Constable" is the legal term used in UK law to refer to police officers and give them special powers or immunities. A Detective Chief Inspector is still a Constable by this meaning, so is a Special Constable (volunteer spare time cop) but a Police Community Support Officer (cheaper fake cops with less training) is not a constable. Outside of statute law, ordinary people don't call them constables. British pop culture says the equivalent of a "get out of jail free" card would be membership of a Masonic Lodge. Police officers (in particular senior ranks) are supposed to be particularly likely to join the Masons, an esoteric order with a big emphasis on helping other members.
- beaconstudios 9y ago
  just to add to your comment, in the UK it's prohibited to carry weapons openly. You can legally own a wide range of firearms but there are strict rules around when and where you can carry them and I believe (based on observation, not research) you're not allowed to take a weapon out of its carry case or bag outside of your home or a registered gun club. You can own a rifle and ammunition and keep them at home as long as you have a police-inspected gun safe for your weapon and a separate one for your ammunition and bolt.

djsumdog 9y ago

But there are also countries like NZ, where private gun ownership is legal, but NZ police do not carry firearms (some have firearms, but they are locked in the boots of their vehicles). In Australia and NZ, it's important to note that you must register each firearm and you need a reason. That reason can include pest control or sport, but it cannot be self defense. I think one of the biggest reasons firearms are not registered in the US is because the gun industry and the NRA lobby against it to keep guns flowing into South and Central America. I wrote about this a while back: http://fightthefuture.org/article/america-and-the-mexican-drug-trade/ http://fightthefuture.org/article/america-and-the-mexican-dr...

digi_owl 9y ago
In these discussions i find myself wondering how many of the firearms owned are pistols or something equally concealable, and how many are longarms(?). Norway similarly makes it relatively easy to own a rifle or shotgun for hunting. But it is that much harder to get a pistol. Best i recall, you need to have been a member of a target shooting club for some time before even being considered. And even then you are only permitted to transport it to and from the range, not general carry.
- toomanybeersies 9y ago
  Pistols are very uncommon in New Zealand, the vast majority of firearms are longarms. The rules are similar to the ones you describe for Norway.
HumanDrivenDev 9y ago
NZ police will carry firearms on their persons in very specific circumstances, but it's not standard. There's also the "Armed Offenders Squad", maybe analogous to a SWAT team, who are armed. Don't know too much about them, you just hear them mentioned on the news when there's a gunman who has shot someone.

orf 9y ago

Police don't carry guns, except very specific units patrolling potential terrorist risk sites (i.e central-ish London). There are tactical units that can be called out, and are part of the police, but they don't patrol and are more like the SWAT than a "beat cop". Same for those very specific units to be honest.

beojan 9y ago

In England, very few police officers carry guns.