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Private landowners blocking access to public lands in the American West
- electricslpnsld 9y agoYou don't even have to go to Montana. Some of my neighbors in Oakland have been beefing with a local restaurant/nightclub that keeps blocking off access to public waterfront and sends beefy rent-a-cops to intimidate people in the public space.
- gamblor956 9y agoPlease name the restaurant. I have some connections with Oakland City Council and they can take a look into this.
- electricslpnsld 9y agoEve's Waterfront. Neighbors have complained that they've gone as far as blocking off the San Francisco Bay Trail during bigger events at night. Edit: Interesting, I dug up some zoning documents from the restaurant, and the Bay Conservation and Development Commission specifically called out the actions they are doing now (blocking the trail, blocking public access decks) as violations on page 4. [1] http://www2.oaklandnet.com/oakca1/groups/ceda/documents/agenda/oak063115.pdf http://www2.oaklandnet.com/oakca1/groups/ceda/documents/agen...
- nielsbot 9y agoMan it would be a real shame if the Oakland Department of Public Health received a spate of complaints and found unsanitary conditions in the kitchen...
- alex_hitchins 9y agoWould it also not be likely illegal (?) and as unethical as their action?
- nielsbot 9y agoIt was not a serious suggestion. Sorry HN. I suppose you could get in trouble for misusing city resources? Assuming that didn't actually have any violations.
- alex_hitchins 9y agoThank you. While I believe their actions are disgraceful, it only adds fuel to their fire. My belief is we need to find a way to understand their concerns as best we can to show them their fears are un-grounded. Even if it was in jest which I fully appreciate, to the 'other side' it looks like what it was.
- nielsbot 9y agoTo clarify: Just for discussion purposes, not actually recommending this course of action.
- gamblor956 9y agoCall the cops the next time the restaurant tries to do this. The City manager has made them aware of the situation.
- f2n 9y agoSounds like a great opportunity for some IRL trollin. Get it on film + name and shame the venue.
- stevenwoo 9y agoNo mention of the local (to ycombinator) dispute with Vinod Khosla. http://www.hmbreview.com/news/martin-s-beach-open-again/article_1a82aeb6-af88-11e7-9e78-9b8317e4101c.html http://www.hmbreview.com/news/martin-s-beach-open-again/arti... I'm surprised people never protested at his office on Sand Hill Road.
- jacquesm 9y agoThis sort of abuse of wealth is absolutely revolting, but how do you deal with parties that have amassed enough power to basically thumb their noses at the rest of the populace? The casualness with which such a rich asshole deprives thousands of people of their rights without any fear for consequences is absolutely disgusting.
- mschuster91 9y ago> The casualness with which such a rich asshole deprives thousands of people of their rights without any fear for consequences is absolutely disgusting. >> "He shot and killed his neighbor, Timothy Newman, a man who had repeatedly challenged Campbell over his access-blocking proclivities. Campbell first claimed it was self-defense because Newman threatened him, but last year he finally pleaded guilty to negligent homicide. He’s now on probation, under a 20 years suspended prison sentence." Just WTF? This is absolutely insane. Other people end up in the chamber for such things (not that I like the death penalty or other excessive punishment, quite the opposite). The sign that if you're rich enough you can get off with murder is a threat to the core stability of society.
- jacquesm 9y agohttp://www.ktvh.com/2016/05/joseph-campbell-pleads-no-contest-in-the-shooting-death-of-tim-newman http://www.ktvh.com/2016/05/joseph-campbell-pleads-no-contes... Plea deals when you're rich are a completely different thing than when you're poor apparently.
- AckSyn 9y agoIt's almost like the government that puts easements up, or laws requiring easements, failed them. This is hardly the fault of land owners that don't want 'everyone else' traipsing all over their property. If the public land must have access, they can use eminent domain to buy the strip of land required to put in a road.
- joshuaheard 9y agoPart of the problem is that the federal government is the largest landholder is most of the Western states (https://goo.gl/images/vsw7rK https://goo.gl/images/vsw7rK), so conceivably there are a lot of adjacent private lands. How do you determine access? If I have a property that borders federal (public) land, must I grant access? The other problem then, is that all this land is managed by bureaucrats in Washington DC. A better solution would be to give the bulk of this land to the states who are closer to the local residents and can more effectively manage the property. Limited easements should then be purchased from willing sellers.
- dawnerd 9y ago> If I have a property that borders federal (public) land, must I grant access? Depending on if there's an easement on your property, yes. These kinds of things are usually spelled out clearly in real-estate deals. A lot of homeowners on the beach think they own the land up to the water but that's not always the case despite them trying to block access. No one has to necessarily cross their property to get there either.
- tmh79 9y ago> A lot of homeowners on the beach think they own the land up to the water but that's not always the case despite them trying to block access. In California, it is literally never the case, by state law.
- dawnerd 9y agoIn Ventura there was some people trying to fight that near the marina. If I remember correctly one of the homeowners tried to build a fence/wall to the water. Also remember something similar happening in Malibu.
- jessaustin 9y agoWho is Zinke? Is she someone like Madonna, whom we readers should know from her single name in its single mention in TFA? Try harder, editors!
- dragonwriter 9y agoOutgoing Rep. Ryan Zinke (R-MT), who left the House to become Trump's Secretary of the Interior. Probably, an edit to the article removed an earlier reference to Zinke and didn't clean up the remaining reference to the style for a first rather than subsequent reference.
- jedberg 9y agoMontana's former Congressman. It said so... about four words later.
- jessaustin 9y agoSole mention of "Zinke": Still, Gianforte was elected months later in a special election to replace Zinke as Montana’s congressman. Yes I know I could have just Googled it. I don't actually care who Zinke is, or what her or his first (last?) name might be. My comment was about journalistic standards. Sorry to confuse you.
- jedberg 9y agoYes I understand that your criticism was about journalistic standards. My point was that they didn't violate any standards, by telling you who Zinke is right after mentioning his name.
- jessaustin 9y agoApparently they left something out? TIL he's Interior Secretary involved with several of the controversies discussed in TFA? b^)
- seattle_spring 9y ago
- mirimir 9y agoAnd Zuckerberg in Hawaii. Sure, I get that he values his privacy. But damn, the juxtaposition of privacy with Facebook's founder is highly ironic.
- nikmobi 9y agoDidn't that lawsuit end up being entirely misconstrued [1, 2]? IANAL, so I can't verify the legitimacy of the sources there but it made sense to me. I'm interested if someone more aware of the situation and laws has insight. https://www.reddit.com/r/Documentaries/comments/7bwh7q/mark_zuckerberg_sued_native_hawaiians_for_their/dplnhf4/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Documentaries/comments/7bwh7q/mark_... https://www.reddit.com/r/Documentaries/comments/7bwh7q/mark_zuckerberg_sued_native_hawaiians_for_their/dplj8xl/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Documentaries/comments/7bwh7q/mark_...
- craftyguy 9y agoI'm not so sure that random comments on reddit are a good source of credible information. I suppose the same could be said about random comments on HN without credible sources.
- mirimir 9y agoThe matter was widely reported in January 2017.
- craftyguy 9y agoStill waiting for those credible sources!
- mirimir 9y agoHere's a CNBC article about his reconsideration: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/25/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerberg-reconsidering-hawaii-property-lawsuits.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/25/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerberg... And here's his statement about having done so: https://web.archive.org/web/20170130025034/http://thegardenisland.com/news/opinion/guest/mark-zuckerberg-and-priscilla-chan-we-are-dropping-our-quiet/article_e80fc17c-e4b1-11e6-bc5c-9308d8f880f4.html https://web.archive.org/web/20170130025034/http://thegardeni... OK?
- beedogs 9y agoWow, so, when you're wealthy in America, you can literally murder someone in cold blood and only get probation for it? "He shot and killed his neighbor, Timothy Newman, a man who had repeatedly challenged Campbell over his access-blocking proclivities. Campbell first claimed it was self-defense because Newman threatened him, but last year he finally pleaded guilty to negligent homicide. He’s now on probation, under a 20 years suspended prison sentence."
- tyingq 9y agoProbation and the felony conviction also have little effect on someone that's independently wealthy. Where the same sentence on a middle class person would amount to financial ruin and unemployment. It's very close to "completely getting away with it" for a rich person.
- paulddraper 9y ago"Murder in cold blood" is not "negligent homicide". It's premeditated homicide, i.e. first degree murder.
- beedogs 9y agoWhich makes me wonder why he was only charged with the latter; it's clear he committed the former.
- maxxxxx 9y agoThat's a thing that bothers me generally in the West. In theory there is a lot of open country but in reality there are huge areas of grazing land fenced in with no way to get through which makes hiking very difficult. In Britain and Germany they usually don't completely block off their land but there are trails going through.
- trhway 9y agoand in Nordic countries there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam
- DonaldFisk 9y agoand in Scotland there is http://www.outdooraccess-scotland.com http://www.outdooraccess-scotland.com
- BrandoElFollito 9y agoIn France, on the seashore, this is called "the path of the customs officers" [1] [1] https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentier_littoral https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentier_littoral
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- js2 9y agoBloomberg piece on same topic discussed here a few months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15552574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15552574
- mrarjen 9y agoI remember reading an article regarding this some time ago as well. It's mostly due to some new rule that when the public has been able to access private land for an amount of time unhindered the state can claim it their own. This has caused most to fence up in order to keep their land. It's completely understandable, and this is mostly just Government trolling to land owners and causing inconvenient situations to the public wanting to access public grounds.
- sideshowb 9y agoWho would write a law like that? In the uk long term use can establish a public right of way, but it still belongs to the landowner.
- Brockenstein 9y agoBecause there's no perfect solution. If a piece of land has that much utility the government could take ownership (possible compensate the owner) and be responsible for maintaining and upkeep. I mean your example in the UK, I can't believe every landowner that has a public right of way on their property is thrilled about it, especially in cases when they went to do something with their property and the government told them no because of the right of way. What good is owning that property one might wonder? If it's that important to everyone why not have the government purchase it and maintain it? Every landowner might have a different opinion of what the best solution is. Good luck writing a law that appeases them all.
- sideshowb 9y agoHere the local authority is responsible for upkeep (though in practice they may not have the budget). Landowner responsibility is pretty much just don't block it or put anything dangerous there.
- alkonaut 9y agoThe contrast between the "stand your ground" and "no trespassing" of the US on one hand, and my "Freedom to roam" on the other, is pretty stark.