3 ms·

Basically your argument is that the costs of getting the vaccine are so negligible they can be ignored? What about side effects? https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protec

by nonbel 9y ago

Basically your argument is that the costs of getting the vaccine are so negligible they can be ignored? What about side effects? https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/general.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/general.htm

opportune 9y ago
Yes, they exist and aren't that common/severe. I mean at the end of the day it's a personal decision and if you're already unhealthy I understand why you wouldn't want to get the side effects. The problem is one of ignorance: people don't even know what herd immunity is and why it's important. In my opinion the side effects pale in comparison to the effects of getting the flu and are not a big "sacrifice" to make whatsoever - but you need to understand the importance of herd immunity to make a truly informed decision I'm not going to continue replying to this conversation because I can sense that it's going to become unproductive
- nonbel 9y ago
  Ok, but besides my main point (regarding doing a cost benefit analysis), from your comments I doubt you understand herd immunity, and probably should not be attempting to teach others about it... If the virus is too infectious you need very high rates of immunization for it to work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number Most of the time those R0 values assume "well mixed populations" (any one person is just as likely to contact any other person) amongst other things, so don't take them too seriously. However, the basic idea that you don't automatically get herd immunity is simple enough. Eg, just what I found quickly on the topic: >"Whether vaccination of healthcare personnel can lead to a herd effect reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza among patients is still inconclusive. Pooled data from a Cochrane review of 3 cluster randomized controlled trials showed no reduction of laboratory-confirmed influenza (OR 0.86, 95% CI 0.44–1.68; p = 0.66), lower respiratory tract infections, admission to hospital (OR 0.89, 95% CI 0.75–1.06), and deaths from pneumonia (OR 0.82, 95% CI 0.45–1.49) in patients when healthcare personnel were vaccinated [35]. However, given that mathematical models suggest a herd effect [36], more rigorous studies need to be conducted." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3171704/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3171704/
bigtex 9y ago
Yep, all you have to do is review the government statistics on vaccine injuries to see the list of all the people who got GBS from the flu shot https://www.hrsa.gov/advisorycommittees/childhoodvaccines/Meetings/20171208/doj-presentation.pdf https://www.hrsa.gov/advisorycommittees/childhoodvaccines/Me...
- nonbel 9y ago
  I wasn't really thinking about GBS, but that is one of the more severe possible (but rare) side effects. Most people (everyone?) feels under the weather for a few days after a flu shot.

by nonbel 9y ago

opportune 9y ago

Yes, they exist and aren't that common/severe. I mean at the end of the day it's a personal decision and if you're already unhealthy I understand why you wouldn't want to get the side effects. The problem is one of ignorance: people don't even know what herd immunity is and why it's important. In my opinion the side effects pale in comparison to the effects of getting the flu and are not a big "sacrifice" to make whatsoever - but you need to understand the importance of herd immunity to make a truly informed decision I'm not going to continue replying to this conversation because I can sense that it's going to become unproductive

nonbel 9y ago
Ok, but besides my main point (regarding doing a cost benefit analysis), from your comments I doubt you understand herd immunity, and probably should not be attempting to teach others about it... If the virus is too infectious you need very high rates of immunization for it to work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number Most of the time those R0 values assume "well mixed populations" (any one person is just as likely to contact any other person) amongst other things, so don't take them too seriously. However, the basic idea that you don't automatically get herd immunity is simple enough. Eg, just what I found quickly on the topic: >"Whether vaccination of healthcare personnel can lead to a herd effect reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza among patients is still inconclusive. Pooled data from a Cochrane review of 3 cluster randomized controlled trials showed no reduction of laboratory-confirmed influenza (OR 0.86, 95% CI 0.44–1.68; p = 0.66), lower respiratory tract infections, admission to hospital (OR 0.89, 95% CI 0.75–1.06), and deaths from pneumonia (OR 0.82, 95% CI 0.45–1.49) in patients when healthcare personnel were vaccinated [35]. However, given that mathematical models suggest a herd effect [36], more rigorous studies need to be conducted." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3171704/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3171704/

bigtex 9y ago

Yep, all you have to do is review the government statistics on vaccine injuries to see the list of all the people who got GBS from the flu shot https://www.hrsa.gov/advisorycommittees/childhoodvaccines/Meetings/20171208/doj-presentation.pdf https://www.hrsa.gov/advisorycommittees/childhoodvaccines/Me...

nonbel 9y ago
I wasn't really thinking about GBS, but that is one of the more severe possible (but rare) side effects. Most people (everyone?) feels under the weather for a few days after a flu shot.