4 ms·

> A sign that the use of temporary contracts should also be a focus, just like wages and work hours. This is harder though. They use temporary contracts becaus

> A sign that the use of temporary contracts should also be a focus, just like wages and work hours. This is harder though. They use temporary contracts because permanent contracts are too expensive. Making temporary contracts (which were actually created to flexibilize hiring) more expensive won't solve that issue. > That depends... I guess we both know the answer to that question. All other factors being the same, where would you hire? Now look at the unemployment rate in those two countries. Why do you think that is?

alkonaut 9y ago
> They use temporary contracts because permanent contracts are too expensive. Making temporary contracts (which were actually created to flexibilize hiring) more expensive won't solve that issue. Sure. But they hire 40h weeks not because hiring 50h wasn't want they wanted but because it's illegal. I'm not saying it's easy to outlaw temporary contracts but it's worth a try.
- ucaetano 9y ago
  > But they hire 40h weeks not because hiring 50h wasn't want they wanted but because it's illegal. 40h? France has a 35-hour work week. > I'm not saying it's easy to outlaw temporary contracts but it's worth a try. Temporary contracts were created to reduce unemployment, because permanent contracts are too expensive. The solution isn't removing them, but making regular labor contracts cheaper. You're essentially advocating for measures that reduce employment. It isn't worth a try, it has been tried and failed. Every. Single. Time. That's before we get into the fact that you're trying to deal with the symptoms, not the cause. This is the same as trying to outlaw homelessness. Homelessness isn't the problem, it's the symptom.
  - alkonaut 9y ago
    > 40h? France has a 35-hour work week. Yes, in the example of france the norm work week is 35. Otherwise the same > Temporary contracts were created to reduce unemployment, because permanent contracts are too expensive. The solution isn't removing them, but making regular labor contracts cheaper. Well making regular contracts cheaper means lower wages and/or lower fees/taxes on labor. Making full time contracts cheaper means more security and possibly lower unemployment, at the cost of wages (and/or tax income depending on what is lowered). > You're essentially advocating for measures that reduce employment. Countries with high wages AND high taxes on labor (nordic countries for example) tend to have higher unemployment but that's just natural. As always it's a tradeoff between the needs of employees and employers. That balance can be found in different ways. Sweden doesn't have minimum wages om , for example.
    - ucaetano 9y ago
      > Well making regular contracts cheaper means lower wages and/or lower fees/taxes on labor. Making full time contracts cheaper means more security and possibly lower unemployment, at the cost of wages (and/or tax income depending on what is lowered). Indeed, and as we can see, current contract model is negatively impacting employment. Making it stricter won't help. > Countries with high wages AND high taxes on labor (nordic countries for example) tend to have higher unemployment but that's just natural. As always it's a tradeoff between the needs of employees and employers. That balance can be found in different ways. Sweden doesn't have minimum wages om , for example. So you're saying that French people are better of unemployed as it is. And guess where the jobs are moving to? Yep, Germany and Switzerland, which are more competitive.
      - alkonaut 9y ago
        > So you're saying that French people are better of unemployed as it is. Well, I'm saying that most every improvement to labor laws that benefit employees make it more difficult and/or more expensive to hire. That was the case with the 5 day work week being introduced, 2 week holiday (then 3, 4, and 5) etc. The argument is always that it makes a country less competitve and unemployment higher. But I'm pretty happy to live somewhere with 5 week holiday. So there has to be a balance somewhere.
        ucaetano 9y ago
        > Well, I'm saying that most every improvement to labor laws that benefit employees make it more difficult and/or more expensive to hire. Yes, and it protects those with a job and more qualified, and who pays for it is those unemployed, especially young people coming into the labor market. Strict labor laws at some point end up increasing inequality. Surprise! PS: And that's what happens in France. Inequality isn't between those making a lot and those making a little, it's between those who have a job for life, and those going from short-term contract to short-term contract for years, usually unable to rent or buy a home or a car (those usually require a CDI). Been there, seen that.
salvar 9y ago
Are unemployment rates across countries usually explained by one simple reason?
- ucaetano 9y ago
  Nobody is claiming that they are. But if you could hire an equally-qualified employee in two countries for the same cost, and in one country the employee will take home 70% more for roughly the same work, where would you hire?

alkonaut 9y ago

> They use temporary contracts because permanent contracts are too expensive. Making temporary contracts (which were actually created to flexibilize hiring) more expensive won't solve that issue. Sure. But they hire 40h weeks not because hiring 50h wasn't want they wanted but because it's illegal. I'm not saying it's easy to outlaw temporary contracts but it's worth a try.

ucaetano 9y ago
> But they hire 40h weeks not because hiring 50h wasn't want they wanted but because it's illegal. 40h? France has a 35-hour work week. > I'm not saying it's easy to outlaw temporary contracts but it's worth a try. Temporary contracts were created to reduce unemployment, because permanent contracts are too expensive. The solution isn't removing them, but making regular labor contracts cheaper. You're essentially advocating for measures that reduce employment. It isn't worth a try, it has been tried and failed. Every. Single. Time. That's before we get into the fact that you're trying to deal with the symptoms, not the cause. This is the same as trying to outlaw homelessness. Homelessness isn't the problem, it's the symptom.
- alkonaut 9y ago
  > 40h? France has a 35-hour work week. Yes, in the example of france the norm work week is 35. Otherwise the same > Temporary contracts were created to reduce unemployment, because permanent contracts are too expensive. The solution isn't removing them, but making regular labor contracts cheaper. Well making regular contracts cheaper means lower wages and/or lower fees/taxes on labor. Making full time contracts cheaper means more security and possibly lower unemployment, at the cost of wages (and/or tax income depending on what is lowered). > You're essentially advocating for measures that reduce employment. Countries with high wages AND high taxes on labor (nordic countries for example) tend to have higher unemployment but that's just natural. As always it's a tradeoff between the needs of employees and employers. That balance can be found in different ways. Sweden doesn't have minimum wages om , for example.
  - ucaetano 9y ago
    > Well making regular contracts cheaper means lower wages and/or lower fees/taxes on labor. Making full time contracts cheaper means more security and possibly lower unemployment, at the cost of wages (and/or tax income depending on what is lowered). Indeed, and as we can see, current contract model is negatively impacting employment. Making it stricter won't help. > Countries with high wages AND high taxes on labor (nordic countries for example) tend to have higher unemployment but that's just natural. As always it's a tradeoff between the needs of employees and employers. That balance can be found in different ways. Sweden doesn't have minimum wages om , for example. So you're saying that French people are better of unemployed as it is. And guess where the jobs are moving to? Yep, Germany and Switzerland, which are more competitive.
    - alkonaut 9y ago
      > So you're saying that French people are better of unemployed as it is. Well, I'm saying that most every improvement to labor laws that benefit employees make it more difficult and/or more expensive to hire. That was the case with the 5 day work week being introduced, 2 week holiday (then 3, 4, and 5) etc. The argument is always that it makes a country less competitve and unemployment higher. But I'm pretty happy to live somewhere with 5 week holiday. So there has to be a balance somewhere.
      - ucaetano 9y ago
        > Well, I'm saying that most every improvement to labor laws that benefit employees make it more difficult and/or more expensive to hire. Yes, and it protects those with a job and more qualified, and who pays for it is those unemployed, especially young people coming into the labor market. Strict labor laws at some point end up increasing inequality. Surprise! PS: And that's what happens in France. Inequality isn't between those making a lot and those making a little, it's between those who have a job for life, and those going from short-term contract to short-term contract for years, usually unable to rent or buy a home or a car (those usually require a CDI). Been there, seen that.

salvar 9y ago

Are unemployment rates across countries usually explained by one simple reason?

ucaetano 9y ago
Nobody is claiming that they are. But if you could hire an equally-qualified employee in two countries for the same cost, and in one country the employee will take home 70% more for roughly the same work, where would you hire?