8 ms·

I still regularly meet expats living in a foreign country who believe that it's better for their kid not to learn both their father tongue and mother tongue tog

I still regularly meet expats living in a foreign country who believe that it's better for their kid not to learn both their father tongue and mother tongue together with the language from the country they live in so that they don't get confused. It's sad because it's a richness they could give their kids but don't because of fear or bad advice.

supreme_sublime 9y ago
I think some of it might be the convenience of being able to speak to one another without the children knowing what is being said as well. My father's parents knew German and he wasn't taught, but recalled many times where his parents would speak German to each other in front of him, ostensibly so the children couldn't understand. But I think a lot of the reason it is lost is just how it is unnecessary. If everyone understands English and primarily speaks it, there is no real need, or opportunity, to learn/use a second language.
- denzil_correa 9y ago
  > I think some of it might be the convenience of being able to speak to one another without the children knowing what is being said as well. My father's parents knew German and he wasn't taught, but recalled many times where his parents would speak German to each other in front of him, ostensibly so the children couldn't understand. It was the same with my parents but more out of necessity than a deliberate act. I grew up with 4 languages but my parents spoke another 2. It would be difficult to understand those extra 2 languages as they had different scripts and were really different in nature. The result was that my parents used it as an encryption framework to have a private conversation while I was around. I understood zilch.
- otoburb 9y ago
  >>If everyone understands English and primarily speaks it, there is no real need, or opportunity, to learn/use a second language. This hits upon the key motivating driver (or lack thereof) of language acquisition: multiple languages generally act as a force multipler[1], but aren't as "useful" when considered in isolation. The other problem with language acquisition from a purely utilitarian aspect is the fairly large time commitment which might be better spent elsewhere (e.g. studying core subjects in the resident language). But the paradox of the force multiplier factor is that you ideally want a fairly strong base to amplify in the first case (e.g. Math/Science). Even though people may not break it down this way, this seems to be the intuitive reasoning use by [semi-]multilingual parents, and is often another reason why the "culture/tradition" or "fun" aspects of language learning are emphasized as compensating factors. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_multiplication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_multiplication
  - supreme_sublime 9y ago
    Wouldn't they only be a force multiplier in the right network? I suppose that's what you mean by "aren't as useful when considered in isolation", though it almost sounds like you are referring to a specific language.
    - otoburb 9y ago
      You're exactly right - additional languages are only force multipliers within a certain range of circumstances which one would need to actively manage to their advantage. This lends itself to parents heavily considering which languages their children should learn (e.g. Spanish, Mandarin, English) based on number of L1 or L2 speakers.
- ryanianian 9y ago
  > But I think a lot of the reason it is lost is just how it is unnecessary. If everyone understands English and primarily speaks it, there is no real need, or opportunity, to learn/use a second language. Maybe "everyone" understands where the kid lives now, but if they ever decide they want to explore their parents' country or culture, it will likely be much easier if they know the language. Although you don't need to know anything but English in the US, knowing Spanish is extremely valuable and gives you many opportunities to connect with people different from you. There are other ways to get this too, but I'd argue knowing a foreign language that you can use at least sometimes in your area is a huge benefit. (I'm learning Spanish - a bit rough but I know enough to carry a conversation. Talking to others in their native language been one of the more culturally-enlightening experiences I've had in a while!)
pavel_lishin 9y ago
I feel very bad because I'm having a hard time getting enough Russian in with my kid. We live in America, and I'm the only Russian speaker at home - I think once she's a little older, I'm going to have to find a Russian kid-friendly meetup group.
- alexg0 9y ago
  Get a Russian speaking nanny or Russian daycare. There got to be those where ever community is large enough.
  - pavel_lishin 9y ago
    We did look for a Russian daycare, but there wasn't one close enough to where we live. A Russian nanny was also a bit hard to find. Our daycare staff is fluent in Spanish, and our regular babysitter speaks Spanish as well, so hopefully she'll pick up at least enough of that to be able to speak without an accent. I learned English easily and fluently at 10 years of age, so at least I'm telling myself that I've got about a decade before she's linguistically crippled as we all are :P
    - herewulf 9y ago
      Have you looked into getting an "au pair"? Even better option than a nanny for language immersion because an au pair lives in your home. Also more cost effective!
- YaxelPerez 9y ago
  My parents had a rule where we'd only speak Spanish at home and English everywhere else, and now I'm fluent in both languages. It might be a bit difficult for you to implement since you're the only Russian speaker, but it's something to consider.
  - otoburb 9y ago
    That rule is more realistically enforced when both parents speak the language fluently. Even with families that try to enforce this rule, much depends on the aptitude and character of the children, as we know many that can listen but never bothered to expand their fluency beyond a narrow set of home topics which unfortunately in many cases never extended to conversations dealing with emotions.
pm90 9y ago
> so that they don't get confused. I don't get this. I'm trilingual, and I think in English, but I'm fluent in the other 2 languages as well. My parents converse in the mother tongue at home, but with friends they would switch to another language. I think parents are vastly underestimating the cognitive powers of young children.
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  I think for a lot of them, it comes from fear - if you don't speak the language as fluently as natives, or with a noticeable accent, you are very often aware of it, and sometimes reminded explicitly. Some parents are probably just trying to shield their children from what they see as a handicap, or a source of embarrassment. They're wrong, but their motivations are understandable.
  - magic_beans 9y ago
    It ends up doing kids a lot more social harm than good if their non-native speaking parents speak to them in their non-native language poorly -- you end up with a child who speaks their parents non-native language badly, and who doesn't even know their mother tongue.
    - pavel_lishin 9y ago
      Unless they're in a very cloistered community, kids are exposed to the, uh, "host language" very, very frequently. Our toddler has been in daycare since she was fairly young, and started picking up both English and Spanish words. (Her word for "water" remains "agua", in fact; she only recently switched from "abre" to "open".) (And if they're in a very cloistered community, their parents are probably more focused on the native language instead of the host language anyway.)
    - sampo 9y ago
      If kids play with native kids, if they go to daycare and school, they will pick up the native accent from other kids.
    - 9y ago
manyxcxi 9y ago
My brother and I lived this, to a degree... My dad’s native language is Arabic, my mom’s is English (all of us kids and her were born in the US). We moved to Libya for a few years when I was almost two and my brother was about two months old. When we came back my brother pretty much only spoke Arabic and I would flip between English and Arabic depending on who I was speaking to and what I was trying to say. Certainly my more advanced language skills were in Arabic. Problem is, when we got back to the states all my family wanted us to speak in Arabic like a pet monkey doing tricks so we just flat refused to speak to anyone but my mom and dad in Arabic. The only time my dad ever spoke to us in Arabic was when he was super pissed and we were in trouble or grandma was on the phone from Libya, in which case it was past our bed time, the line sounded like static through a tin can, and we wanted nothing to do with the strained conversation. Have you tried putting your three year old on an audio only call? My kids don’t want to take part either. My Arabic is at about the level of a four year old now (I’m 35) and my brother has no Arabic at all. Sadly, I’m conversant in Spanish to a degree I never got to in my father’s native tongue. I don’t have the skills to teach my kids Arabic and use it around the house, but since I can for Spanish, my oldest that is entering Kindergarten in the fall has been enrolled in half-day Spanish immersion to go along with the other half in English. I think my multi-language origin helped me excel in Spanish in school, I’ve read it could’ve been a help when I was learning to read and play music– and even if it is all placebo, I cannot fathom a harm in learning other cultures and languages. It’s easily one of the bigger laments of my childhood that I lost the ability to converse in dad’s native language. Facebook and Google translate have helped me keep in touch, and a lot of my cousins know English better than I do Arabic- but still. My Spanish has even helped me be able to guess at Italian and Portuguese during travels, where I otherwise would’ve been somewhat lost. Obviously there’s massive differences, but the ability to pick out a word or two on a sign goes a LONG way when you’re otherwise unable to communicate with those around you. EDIT: I assume there might be a reply to the tune of “why not go try to learn it now”. I’d like to, but I’ve got higher priorities with three kids under 5 and things I’d rather do with my free time. I’ve almost enrolled in a class or two at the communality college and then bailed. I think its fair to say that I lament it more than I really want it back, else I would’ve done it, so I should quit whining about it.
- otoburb 9y ago
denzil_correa 9y ago
> who believe that it's better for their kid not to learn both their father tongue and mother tongue together with the language from the country they live in so that they don't get confused. I grew up with 4 languages. It only helped me seamlessly "understand" most other foreign languages I listen to.
MrVitaliy 9y ago
I view it in terms of opportunity cost. Let's say your kid has 1 hour of productive attention span per week, time of focused learning. You can either teach them your native tongue or something else, like math and science, or better English. Kids still pick up some vocabulary from speaking to their parents/grandparents. And even if they spoke it toddler-fluently before getting into preschooler, they won't be able to read a newspaper by the time they're teenagers. Without constant immersion, kids just don't have the discipline to keep going at it. This isn't necessarily a bad thing.
- hutzlibu 9y ago
  "Let's say your kid has 1 hour of productive attention span per week, time of focused learning" Children don't need that special mindset to learn. They learn all the time and pick up the language on the way...
  - pavel_lishin 9y ago
    But not if they're not exposed to it frequently enough to practice hearing and speaking it. They can pick up bits and pieces - which is good - but even for kids, it's not easy to pick up a language without having to play with speaking or writing it, which is hard to do without reinforcement.
    - marci 9y ago
      There's also entertainment (music, kids shows).
- r00fus 9y ago
  > Let's say your kid has 1 hour of productive attention span per week, time of focused learning. That's not the way kids learn at all. They are learning everything all the time, in small amounts. That's why immersion is so important.
dkersten 9y ago
As someone who grew up bilingual, I don’t get this either. (Technically, since I grew up in Ireland, we also learned Irish in school, so three language, except we never spoke Irish outside of school) We never got confused! Having said that, you do need to use all languages enough to get proficient at each of them.
jlg23 9y ago
While I basically agree, parents who fear to confuse their kids do have a point: I have heard preschoolers use portmanteaus like "bivor" for "please" (german "bitte" + spanish "por favor") and having a jard time being understood outside of their immediate circle. OTOH, this is only anecdotal evidence and I guess it is safe to assume that kids will grow out of this quickly once exposed to a single "main" language in daycare or school.
dorfsmay 9y ago
When kids have to juggle with more than one language, their initial learning is slower than kids who learn only one. Eventually that difference disappears, but that could explain the fear of the parents when they initially see their kids developing in the local language slower than their age-peers.
- spikej 9y ago
  For me it's a different angle: it's so I can understand what my toddler wants! We've been teaching ASL (and thus English) since she was 6 months old. This is not our native tongue. But even at 2 now, it's very difficult to understand a lot of what she's saying. Having her sign along makes it somewhat easier, but it's still a guessing game. At this age, her speech and signs aren't always very clear. Having an even larger vocabulary in another language would make it even harder to guess what she wants! We'll start teaching her our native tongue as she gets a little bit older.

supreme_sublime 9y ago

I think some of it might be the convenience of being able to speak to one another without the children knowing what is being said as well. My father's parents knew German and he wasn't taught, but recalled many times where his parents would speak German to each other in front of him, ostensibly so the children couldn't understand. But I think a lot of the reason it is lost is just how it is unnecessary. If everyone understands English and primarily speaks it, there is no real need, or opportunity, to learn/use a second language.

denzil_correa 9y ago
> I think some of it might be the convenience of being able to speak to one another without the children knowing what is being said as well. My father's parents knew German and he wasn't taught, but recalled many times where his parents would speak German to each other in front of him, ostensibly so the children couldn't understand. It was the same with my parents but more out of necessity than a deliberate act. I grew up with 4 languages but my parents spoke another 2. It would be difficult to understand those extra 2 languages as they had different scripts and were really different in nature. The result was that my parents used it as an encryption framework to have a private conversation while I was around. I understood zilch.
otoburb 9y ago
>>If everyone understands English and primarily speaks it, there is no real need, or opportunity, to learn/use a second language. This hits upon the key motivating driver (or lack thereof) of language acquisition: multiple languages generally act as a force multipler[1], but aren't as "useful" when considered in isolation. The other problem with language acquisition from a purely utilitarian aspect is the fairly large time commitment which might be better spent elsewhere (e.g. studying core subjects in the resident language). But the paradox of the force multiplier factor is that you ideally want a fairly strong base to amplify in the first case (e.g. Math/Science). Even though people may not break it down this way, this seems to be the intuitive reasoning use by [semi-]multilingual parents, and is often another reason why the "culture/tradition" or "fun" aspects of language learning are emphasized as compensating factors. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_multiplication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_multiplication
- supreme_sublime 9y ago
  Wouldn't they only be a force multiplier in the right network? I suppose that's what you mean by "aren't as useful when considered in isolation", though it almost sounds like you are referring to a specific language.
  - otoburb 9y ago
    You're exactly right - additional languages are only force multipliers within a certain range of circumstances which one would need to actively manage to their advantage. This lends itself to parents heavily considering which languages their children should learn (e.g. Spanish, Mandarin, English) based on number of L1 or L2 speakers.
ryanianian 9y ago
> But I think a lot of the reason it is lost is just how it is unnecessary. If everyone understands English and primarily speaks it, there is no real need, or opportunity, to learn/use a second language. Maybe "everyone" understands where the kid lives now, but if they ever decide they want to explore their parents' country or culture, it will likely be much easier if they know the language. Although you don't need to know anything but English in the US, knowing Spanish is extremely valuable and gives you many opportunities to connect with people different from you. There are other ways to get this too, but I'd argue knowing a foreign language that you can use at least sometimes in your area is a huge benefit. (I'm learning Spanish - a bit rough but I know enough to carry a conversation. Talking to others in their native language been one of the more culturally-enlightening experiences I've had in a while!)

pavel_lishin 9y ago

I feel very bad because I'm having a hard time getting enough Russian in with my kid. We live in America, and I'm the only Russian speaker at home - I think once she's a little older, I'm going to have to find a Russian kid-friendly meetup group.

alexg0 9y ago
Get a Russian speaking nanny or Russian daycare. There got to be those where ever community is large enough.
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  We did look for a Russian daycare, but there wasn't one close enough to where we live. A Russian nanny was also a bit hard to find. Our daycare staff is fluent in Spanish, and our regular babysitter speaks Spanish as well, so hopefully she'll pick up at least enough of that to be able to speak without an accent. I learned English easily and fluently at 10 years of age, so at least I'm telling myself that I've got about a decade before she's linguistically crippled as we all are :P
  - herewulf 9y ago
    Have you looked into getting an "au pair"? Even better option than a nanny for language immersion because an au pair lives in your home. Also more cost effective!
YaxelPerez 9y ago
My parents had a rule where we'd only speak Spanish at home and English everywhere else, and now I'm fluent in both languages. It might be a bit difficult for you to implement since you're the only Russian speaker, but it's something to consider.
- otoburb 9y ago
  That rule is more realistically enforced when both parents speak the language fluently. Even with families that try to enforce this rule, much depends on the aptitude and character of the children, as we know many that can listen but never bothered to expand their fluency beyond a narrow set of home topics which unfortunately in many cases never extended to conversations dealing with emotions.

pm90 9y ago

> so that they don't get confused. I don't get this. I'm trilingual, and I think in English, but I'm fluent in the other 2 languages as well. My parents converse in the mother tongue at home, but with friends they would switch to another language. I think parents are vastly underestimating the cognitive powers of young children.

pavel_lishin 9y ago
I think for a lot of them, it comes from fear - if you don't speak the language as fluently as natives, or with a noticeable accent, you are very often aware of it, and sometimes reminded explicitly. Some parents are probably just trying to shield their children from what they see as a handicap, or a source of embarrassment. They're wrong, but their motivations are understandable.
- magic_beans 9y ago
  It ends up doing kids a lot more social harm than good if their non-native speaking parents speak to them in their non-native language poorly -- you end up with a child who speaks their parents non-native language badly, and who doesn't even know their mother tongue.
  - pavel_lishin 9y ago
    Unless they're in a very cloistered community, kids are exposed to the, uh, "host language" very, very frequently. Our toddler has been in daycare since she was fairly young, and started picking up both English and Spanish words. (Her word for "water" remains "agua", in fact; she only recently switched from "abre" to "open".) (And if they're in a very cloistered community, their parents are probably more focused on the native language instead of the host language anyway.)
  - sampo 9y ago
    If kids play with native kids, if they go to daycare and school, they will pick up the native accent from other kids.
  - 9y ago

manyxcxi 9y ago

My brother and I lived this, to a degree... My dad’s native language is Arabic, my mom’s is English (all of us kids and her were born in the US). We moved to Libya for a few years when I was almost two and my brother was about two months old. When we came back my brother pretty much only spoke Arabic and I would flip between English and Arabic depending on who I was speaking to and what I was trying to say. Certainly my more advanced language skills were in Arabic. Problem is, when we got back to the states all my family wanted us to speak in Arabic like a pet monkey doing tricks so we just flat refused to speak to anyone but my mom and dad in Arabic. The only time my dad ever spoke to us in Arabic was when he was super pissed and we were in trouble or grandma was on the phone from Libya, in which case it was past our bed time, the line sounded like static through a tin can, and we wanted nothing to do with the strained conversation. Have you tried putting your three year old on an audio only call? My kids don’t want to take part either. My Arabic is at about the level of a four year old now (I’m 35) and my brother has no Arabic at all. Sadly, I’m conversant in Spanish to a degree I never got to in my father’s native tongue. I don’t have the skills to teach my kids Arabic and use it around the house, but since I can for Spanish, my oldest that is entering Kindergarten in the fall has been enrolled in half-day Spanish immersion to go along with the other half in English. I think my multi-language origin helped me excel in Spanish in school, I’ve read it could’ve been a help when I was learning to read and play music– and even if it is all placebo, I cannot fathom a harm in learning other cultures and languages. It’s easily one of the bigger laments of my childhood that I lost the ability to converse in dad’s native language. Facebook and Google translate have helped me keep in touch, and a lot of my cousins know English better than I do Arabic- but still. My Spanish has even helped me be able to guess at Italian and Portuguese during travels, where I otherwise would’ve been somewhat lost. Obviously there’s massive differences, but the ability to pick out a word or two on a sign goes a LONG way when you’re otherwise unable to communicate with those around you. EDIT: I assume there might be a reply to the tune of “why not go try to learn it now”. I’d like to, but I’ve got higher priorities with three kids under 5 and things I’d rather do with my free time. I’ve almost enrolled in a class or two at the communality college and then bailed. I think its fair to say that I lament it more than I really want it back, else I would’ve done it, so I should quit whining about it.

otoburb 9y ago

denzil_correa 9y ago

> who believe that it's better for their kid not to learn both their father tongue and mother tongue together with the language from the country they live in so that they don't get confused. I grew up with 4 languages. It only helped me seamlessly "understand" most other foreign languages I listen to.

MrVitaliy 9y ago

I view it in terms of opportunity cost. Let's say your kid has 1 hour of productive attention span per week, time of focused learning. You can either teach them your native tongue or something else, like math and science, or better English. Kids still pick up some vocabulary from speaking to their parents/grandparents. And even if they spoke it toddler-fluently before getting into preschooler, they won't be able to read a newspaper by the time they're teenagers. Without constant immersion, kids just don't have the discipline to keep going at it. This isn't necessarily a bad thing.

hutzlibu 9y ago
"Let's say your kid has 1 hour of productive attention span per week, time of focused learning" Children don't need that special mindset to learn. They learn all the time and pick up the language on the way...
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  But not if they're not exposed to it frequently enough to practice hearing and speaking it. They can pick up bits and pieces - which is good - but even for kids, it's not easy to pick up a language without having to play with speaking or writing it, which is hard to do without reinforcement.
  - marci 9y ago
    There's also entertainment (music, kids shows).
r00fus 9y ago
> Let's say your kid has 1 hour of productive attention span per week, time of focused learning. That's not the way kids learn at all. They are learning everything all the time, in small amounts. That's why immersion is so important.

dkersten 9y ago

As someone who grew up bilingual, I don’t get this either. (Technically, since I grew up in Ireland, we also learned Irish in school, so three language, except we never spoke Irish outside of school) We never got confused! Having said that, you do need to use all languages enough to get proficient at each of them.

jlg23 9y ago

While I basically agree, parents who fear to confuse their kids do have a point: I have heard preschoolers use portmanteaus like "bivor" for "please" (german "bitte" + spanish "por favor") and having a jard time being understood outside of their immediate circle. OTOH, this is only anecdotal evidence and I guess it is safe to assume that kids will grow out of this quickly once exposed to a single "main" language in daycare or school.

dorfsmay 9y ago

When kids have to juggle with more than one language, their initial learning is slower than kids who learn only one. Eventually that difference disappears, but that could explain the fear of the parents when they initially see their kids developing in the local language slower than their age-peers.

spikej 9y ago
For me it's a different angle: it's so I can understand what my toddler wants! We've been teaching ASL (and thus English) since she was 6 months old. This is not our native tongue. But even at 2 now, it's very difficult to understand a lot of what she's saying. Having her sign along makes it somewhat easier, but it's still a guessing game. At this age, her speech and signs aren't always very clear. Having an even larger vocabulary in another language would make it even harder to guess what she wants! We'll start teaching her our native tongue as she gets a little bit older.