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> Get angry at banks? My response to anyone serious about competing with banks: go work for one. Banks are often portrayed as these evil faceless entities tha

by mstade 9y ago

> Get angry at banks? My response to anyone serious about competing with banks: go work for one. Banks are often portrayed as these evil faceless entities that act completely in their self interest. In reality, most banks that matter are simply too large to act as one – and not in the sense that they are too big to fail (although, that's probably true as well) but that they are huge organizations with thousands upon thousands of employees and teams of varying autonomy. They may be all under one brand (and likely also under many sub-brands) but they don't act as one, pretty much ever. Banks are very interesting organizations to work for, for a great many reasons. I think anyone with a serious grudge against banks thinking they can do better should spend at least a few years working for one. If nothing else, they'll learn first hand what to try and avoid, and possibly also why things are so ass-backwards a lot of the time.

toddmatthews 9y ago
Wells Fargo - multiple systematic fraudulent issues in the past few years https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/wells-fargo-accused-of-forcing-mortgage-applicants-to-pay-unwarranted-fees/2017/09/05/2ed18eaa-925a-11e7-8754-d478688d23b4_story.html?utm_term=.73b6151f0393 https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/wells-fargo-accuse...
- AJ007 9y ago
  Sales issues, which any organization can and will have if they don’t very closely monitor what their sales people are promising and doing. Being a bank is not the red flag characteristic here.
staunch 9y ago
If you want to spend your time on earth helping to destroy the lives of poor people, work at a bank like Bank of America or Wells Fargo. They've got evil corruption down to a science. > A 2014 CFPB study showed that about 8 percent of bank customers pay about 75 percent of all overdraft fees. And much of the time, the purchases that trigger overdraft fees are minor. The median debit card transaction that ends in an overdraft fee is $24, according to the bureau. > Overdraft fees began piling up in Davis Clark’s Wells Fargo account after he lost his job in February. The 26-year-old fell behind on bills, including about $9,000 in short-term loans he had taken out to help cover his living expenses. Each time the lenders tried to automatically withdraw payment from his checking account — his monthly payments added up to about $550 — he was hit with a $35 charge from his bank for not having sufficient funds. By the time Clark started a new job as a data analyst less than two months later, his checking account was negative by more than $1,400. The debt that ate up more than half of his first paycheck and made it more difficult for him to catch up on the rent and other bills. Last week, Clark opened up a second checking account with another bank so that he could avoid having his earnings eaten by overdraft fees. But with the charges continuing to pile up on his first account, he worries he will have little choice but to file for bankruptcy to clear the loans and overdraft fees. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/get-there/wp/2016/06/13/wall-street-is-making-big-bucks-from-overdraft-fees-again/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/get-there/wp/2016/06/13/... If you want to help people, empower your fellow humans with new technology that renders these truly evil megacorps obsolete.
- jmulho 9y ago
  I was once hit with a $35 overdraft fee three days in a row for buying a cup of coffee at Starbucks. I was really pissed off... at myself, for not staying on top of my bank balance. I don't consider the bank evil for enforcing terms I agreed to.
  - Chirael 9y ago
    It's also often possible to set up low balance alerts including text and email. It's one of the first things I look for when setting up a new bank account (at any bank) - right after turning on 2FA of course.
    - johnpowell 9y ago
      I got a overdraft about 6 years ago and when I went into the bank to sort it out they said if I want they can just turn off overdrafts so the card will be simply declined. I use a credit union.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
  - influx 9y ago
    I'm all for personal accountability, but these banks have also intentionally "mis-ordered" transactions to make it that you hit multiple overdraft fees. http://www.wisebread.com/banks-manipulate-your-transactions-may-charge-you-1750-overdraft-fee http://www.wisebread.com/banks-manipulate-your-transactions-...
  - untog 9y ago
    I don't think your punishment for buying an expensive luxury coffee is the main complaint people have with overdraft fees. There are plenty of people who do monitor their balances. Obsessively. Because they have to, because they live just above the poverty line. Overdraft fees punish those people, often for things out of their control (having to take a sick day when you don't get sick pay, for example. Or just not getting enough hours given to you in the first place!), punishing their loss of money by... taking away even more of their money. This is more of a debate about society than the specific products a bank offers, but you being daft enough to pay $35 for a Starbucks coffee isn't really comparable to the lives these people live, and the vicious cycle things like overdraft fees can land them in.
GFischer 9y ago
I worked for a few financial institutions, and interacted with banks, and frankly, you CAN do better, and you can both find malice and stupidity, and they can do that because they're protected by regulation. There are some startups here in Uruguay that have gone against banks and were winning (one started by a classmate that used to work for a financial institution), and they of course are getting hammered with regulatory oversight (some needed, some not). I'm frankly surprised they let them go as far as they did, they were true entrepreneurs, I wouldn't have started them, not because I didn't think they were needed or succeeded, but because of the risk.
hndamien 9y ago
I have a better solution for those that are angry at banks and wish to innovate around them. Don't use them. Build communities around you that are also happy to not use them. There are plenty of working solutions available now to be free of banks - the main thing that is tethering you is lack of faith in crypto/ each other and debt that is still required to be serviced. Once you can unshackle yourself of the debt, you can say goodbye to the traditional banking system. Maybe not completely, but in the most important and significant ways.
- Fnoord 9y ago
  That's one new can of worms. See, I don't have a lack of faith in cryptography; I have a lack of faith in humans ie. PEBKAC. I believe cryptocurrencies are being and are continuing to be abused by human beings with immense repercussions --some of which we're already seeing, some of which is hidden in plain sight, some of which we're yet to see. From programming errors to deliberate scams to losses of hardware wallets the cryptocurrency world isn't for the faint of heart. Meanwhile, there are more ethical banks. They might not be as popular as the big names heck they might not meet your ethical standards in one way or another but... they are out there. I'd say, check out that solution first.
  - hndamien 9y ago
    I hear what you are saying, but it isn’t actually that complicated. Granted, it does get more complicated with larger sums as risk and security requirements increase. That said, if you are an adult, maybe it is time to not rely on a third party to be between you and other economic actors. We don’t do this with information, why do we do it with financial information (who holds what wealth and owes whom how much).
    - Fnoord 9y ago
      > That said, if you are an adult, maybe it is time to not rely on a third party to be between you and other economic actors. We don’t do this with information, why do we do it with financial information (who holds what wealth and owes whom how much). We are outsourcing (in the literal and figural sense) all the time, including with information. Google, Facebook, and arguably Amazon are examples of us outsourcing information. Even there, self hosting (e.g. Mastodon allows a Facebook/Twitter alternative) has its advantages and disadvantages. People do not take disadvantages seriously until it confronts them.
Fnoord 9y ago
As a general note the suggestion to go work for a company or sector you dislike is interesting, just like getting to know someone you dislike is, or trying to do something you really dislike. At best, it broadens your horizon, you learn a lot about how not to do X, and perhaps you can change something from within. At worst, its a confirmation, you can't change anything, it remains a bad fit, and you move on. As an example, this is why people who are into open source and Linux and who went working at Microsoft around late '00/early '10 were making a brilliant move. Not only for themselves, but for Microsoft as well. But we should not forget it is a suggestion which has a price: it costs time/effort switching job, or learning to know someone. I'd say a positive mindset (curiosity, open-mindedness) is going to help, or may even be a necessity.
- mstade 9y ago
  You Sir have precisely understood the essence of what I was trying to say. Working for the "enemy", if you will, definitely comes at a price – but that up front cost could save you lots down the line both in time and capital, simply by virtue of having learned more about the domain you're trying to reform.

by mstade 9y ago

toddmatthews 9y ago

Wells Fargo - multiple systematic fraudulent issues in the past few years https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/wells-fargo-accused-of-forcing-mortgage-applicants-to-pay-unwarranted-fees/2017/09/05/2ed18eaa-925a-11e7-8754-d478688d23b4_story.html?utm_term=.73b6151f0393 https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/wells-fargo-accuse...

AJ007 9y ago
Sales issues, which any organization can and will have if they don’t very closely monitor what their sales people are promising and doing. Being a bank is not the red flag characteristic here.

staunch 9y ago

If you want to spend your time on earth helping to destroy the lives of poor people, work at a bank like Bank of America or Wells Fargo. They've got evil corruption down to a science. > A 2014 CFPB study showed that about 8 percent of bank customers pay about 75 percent of all overdraft fees. And much of the time, the purchases that trigger overdraft fees are minor. The median debit card transaction that ends in an overdraft fee is $24, according to the bureau. > Overdraft fees began piling up in Davis Clark’s Wells Fargo account after he lost his job in February. The 26-year-old fell behind on bills, including about $9,000 in short-term loans he had taken out to help cover his living expenses. Each time the lenders tried to automatically withdraw payment from his checking account — his monthly payments added up to about $550 — he was hit with a $35 charge from his bank for not having sufficient funds. By the time Clark started a new job as a data analyst less than two months later, his checking account was negative by more than $1,400. The debt that ate up more than half of his first paycheck and made it more difficult for him to catch up on the rent and other bills. Last week, Clark opened up a second checking account with another bank so that he could avoid having his earnings eaten by overdraft fees. But with the charges continuing to pile up on his first account, he worries he will have little choice but to file for bankruptcy to clear the loans and overdraft fees. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/get-there/wp/2016/06/13/wall-street-is-making-big-bucks-from-overdraft-fees-again/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/get-there/wp/2016/06/13/... If you want to help people, empower your fellow humans with new technology that renders these truly evil megacorps obsolete.

jmulho 9y ago
I was once hit with a $35 overdraft fee three days in a row for buying a cup of coffee at Starbucks. I was really pissed off... at myself, for not staying on top of my bank balance. I don't consider the bank evil for enforcing terms I agreed to.
- Chirael 9y ago
  It's also often possible to set up low balance alerts including text and email. It's one of the first things I look for when setting up a new bank account (at any bank) - right after turning on 2FA of course.
  - johnpowell 9y ago
    I got a overdraft about 6 years ago and when I went into the bank to sort it out they said if I want they can just turn off overdrafts so the card will be simply declined. I use a credit union.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- influx 9y ago
  I'm all for personal accountability, but these banks have also intentionally "mis-ordered" transactions to make it that you hit multiple overdraft fees. http://www.wisebread.com/banks-manipulate-your-transactions-may-charge-you-1750-overdraft-fee http://www.wisebread.com/banks-manipulate-your-transactions-...
- untog 9y ago
  I don't think your punishment for buying an expensive luxury coffee is the main complaint people have with overdraft fees. There are plenty of people who do monitor their balances. Obsessively. Because they have to, because they live just above the poverty line. Overdraft fees punish those people, often for things out of their control (having to take a sick day when you don't get sick pay, for example. Or just not getting enough hours given to you in the first place!), punishing their loss of money by... taking away even more of their money. This is more of a debate about society than the specific products a bank offers, but you being daft enough to pay $35 for a Starbucks coffee isn't really comparable to the lives these people live, and the vicious cycle things like overdraft fees can land them in.

GFischer 9y ago

I worked for a few financial institutions, and interacted with banks, and frankly, you CAN do better, and you can both find malice and stupidity, and they can do that because they're protected by regulation. There are some startups here in Uruguay that have gone against banks and were winning (one started by a classmate that used to work for a financial institution), and they of course are getting hammered with regulatory oversight (some needed, some not). I'm frankly surprised they let them go as far as they did, they were true entrepreneurs, I wouldn't have started them, not because I didn't think they were needed or succeeded, but because of the risk.

hndamien 9y ago

I have a better solution for those that are angry at banks and wish to innovate around them. Don't use them. Build communities around you that are also happy to not use them. There are plenty of working solutions available now to be free of banks - the main thing that is tethering you is lack of faith in crypto/ each other and debt that is still required to be serviced. Once you can unshackle yourself of the debt, you can say goodbye to the traditional banking system. Maybe not completely, but in the most important and significant ways.

Fnoord 9y ago
That's one new can of worms. See, I don't have a lack of faith in cryptography; I have a lack of faith in humans ie. PEBKAC. I believe cryptocurrencies are being and are continuing to be abused by human beings with immense repercussions --some of which we're already seeing, some of which is hidden in plain sight, some of which we're yet to see. From programming errors to deliberate scams to losses of hardware wallets the cryptocurrency world isn't for the faint of heart. Meanwhile, there are more ethical banks. They might not be as popular as the big names heck they might not meet your ethical standards in one way or another but... they are out there. I'd say, check out that solution first.
- hndamien 9y ago
  I hear what you are saying, but it isn’t actually that complicated. Granted, it does get more complicated with larger sums as risk and security requirements increase. That said, if you are an adult, maybe it is time to not rely on a third party to be between you and other economic actors. We don’t do this with information, why do we do it with financial information (who holds what wealth and owes whom how much).
  - Fnoord 9y ago
    > That said, if you are an adult, maybe it is time to not rely on a third party to be between you and other economic actors. We don’t do this with information, why do we do it with financial information (who holds what wealth and owes whom how much). We are outsourcing (in the literal and figural sense) all the time, including with information. Google, Facebook, and arguably Amazon are examples of us outsourcing information. Even there, self hosting (e.g. Mastodon allows a Facebook/Twitter alternative) has its advantages and disadvantages. People do not take disadvantages seriously until it confronts them.

Fnoord 9y ago

As a general note the suggestion to go work for a company or sector you dislike is interesting, just like getting to know someone you dislike is, or trying to do something you really dislike. At best, it broadens your horizon, you learn a lot about how not to do X, and perhaps you can change something from within. At worst, its a confirmation, you can't change anything, it remains a bad fit, and you move on. As an example, this is why people who are into open source and Linux and who went working at Microsoft around late '00/early '10 were making a brilliant move. Not only for themselves, but for Microsoft as well. But we should not forget it is a suggestion which has a price: it costs time/effort switching job, or learning to know someone. I'd say a positive mindset (curiosity, open-mindedness) is going to help, or may even be a necessity.

mstade 9y ago
You Sir have precisely understood the essence of what I was trying to say. Working for the "enemy", if you will, definitely comes at a price – but that up front cost could save you lots down the line both in time and capital, simply by virtue of having learned more about the domain you're trying to reform.