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It gets worse. A decade ago, Obama actually got political heat for pronouncing the names of countries, the same way their inhabitants do. Language has evolved

by whack 9y ago

It gets worse. A decade ago, Obama actually got political heat for pronouncing the names of countries, the same way their inhabitants do. Language has evolved far far beyond its original roots as a medium for communication, and has now become a symbol of political identity. "If you pronounce words differently, well, you must clearly not share our values." https://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2010/09/barack_obama https://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2010/09/barack_obama

oh_sigh 9y ago
It seems like half of his pronunciations are how natives might say it, and the other half as 'over-educated faux authenticity'. Which one did he get political heat for? Also, language has been about politics for thousands of years...see the shibboleth story in the Judges(old testament, ~3400 years ago).
stordoff 9y ago
Which is correct is a difficult line to draw though to some extent. Whilst altering the pronunciation of Pakistan makes some sense (because it's the same word), pronouncing a country the same way as the inhabitants is not necessary correct in English -- you'd probably get some sideways glances if you starting insisting on Nippon for Japan or Deutschland for Germany (or even México for Mexico to some extent). I'd also say that language as a political/shared identity is not a new phenomenon.
- mc32 9y ago
  Or, conversely imagine Chinese saying "The United States of America" rather than "mei guo" (美国 - mĕiguó), or Mexicans saying "The United States of America" instead of "Los rstados unidos", etc., etc. It's ridiculous to think you should pronounce the name of any geographic entity by the way the people native to the area do.
- whack 9y ago
  I agree with your word-choice examples - I was referring specifically to pronunciation only. My general instinct is to pronounce people's names the same way they themselves do, as opposed to the way I think it should be pronounced. I try to extend that same principle to countries as well, if the natives unanimously pronounce their country in a certain way when talking in English.
whatshisface 9y ago
> a symbol of political identity > Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth
microcolonel 9y ago
I get heat for pronouncing Iran and Iraq anywhere near correctly, people tell me I sound like a redneck for it.
racer-v 9y ago
Rule of thumb: if all the other words in your sentence are in French, then pronounce the word "France" the way French-speaking people say it. If the other words are English, pronounce it the way English-speaking people say it. Switching accents in the middle of a sentence sounds ridiculous. To illustrate, there's a scene from "Better Off Dead" where the mother repeatedly says "Frawnch" in place of "French" trying to affect an authentic pronounciation, with predictably disastrous results https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhW7rpFhr2k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhW7rpFhr2k

by whack 9y ago

oh_sigh 9y ago

It seems like half of his pronunciations are how natives might say it, and the other half as 'over-educated faux authenticity'. Which one did he get political heat for? Also, language has been about politics for thousands of years...see the shibboleth story in the Judges(old testament, ~3400 years ago).

stordoff 9y ago

Which is correct is a difficult line to draw though to some extent. Whilst altering the pronunciation of Pakistan makes some sense (because it's the same word), pronouncing a country the same way as the inhabitants is not necessary correct in English -- you'd probably get some sideways glances if you starting insisting on Nippon for Japan or Deutschland for Germany (or even México for Mexico to some extent). I'd also say that language as a political/shared identity is not a new phenomenon.

mc32 9y ago
Or, conversely imagine Chinese saying "The United States of America" rather than "mei guo" (美国 - mĕiguó), or Mexicans saying "The United States of America" instead of "Los rstados unidos", etc., etc. It's ridiculous to think you should pronounce the name of any geographic entity by the way the people native to the area do.
whack 9y ago
I agree with your word-choice examples - I was referring specifically to pronunciation only. My general instinct is to pronounce people's names the same way they themselves do, as opposed to the way I think it should be pronounced. I try to extend that same principle to countries as well, if the natives unanimously pronounce their country in a certain way when talking in English.

whatshisface 9y ago

> a symbol of political identity > Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth

microcolonel 9y ago

I get heat for pronouncing Iran and Iraq anywhere near correctly, people tell me I sound like a redneck for it.

racer-v 9y ago

Rule of thumb: if all the other words in your sentence are in French, then pronounce the word "France" the way French-speaking people say it. If the other words are English, pronounce it the way English-speaking people say it. Switching accents in the middle of a sentence sounds ridiculous. To illustrate, there's a scene from "Better Off Dead" where the mother repeatedly says "Frawnch" in place of "French" trying to affect an authentic pronounciation, with predictably disastrous results https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhW7rpFhr2k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhW7rpFhr2k