13 ms·

Root Cause of Reboot Issue Identified; Updated Guidance

105 points by bhauer 9y ago

sounds 9y ago
I'd be interested to actually see a discussion of what the reboot issue was. However, it's good news for everyone who uses affected products that Intel has produced a working fix.
- barbegal 9y ago
  I would presume that something this low level is quite commercially sensitive so unfortunately we might never find out. As far as I can tell they have not released any technical information about how the original microcode update worked.
  - aroman 9y ago
    Security through obscurity at its finest, sadly.
    - knodi 9y ago
      It worked for them for so long. Old habits die hard but die they must.
      - kzrdude 9y ago
        They don't seem to be dying
dralley 9y ago
"reboot" Crash. My PC does not normally reboot without me having asked it to. If it does so, it's a crash (unless it's fucking windows update).
- nugi 9y ago
  Yup, its like an automaker issuing a service bulliten for 'unintentional parking', or 'rapid decelleration'. I get there must always be some marketing involved, but that breaks down fast when it just feels dishonest. That is fast becoming a trend with Intel it seems. And intel desprately needs trust from an industury that depends on them. I really hope they can refocus, and not die a slow death of 'everything's fine'.
  - devopsforlyfe 9y ago
    Apple did it since approximately forever for kernel crashes as well. Anything to avoid any agency and shift the blame onto the user. https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare/images/en_US/osx/shut_down.png https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare...
    - anonred 9y ago
      From the same page: > Your computer restarted because of a problem: https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare/images/en_US/osx/panic.png https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare... > Your computer was restarted because of a problem: https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare/images/en_US/osx/restarted_problem.png https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare...
    - anyfoo 9y ago
      Isn't that the message you get if you forcefully power off (long-press power) a hanging mac, instead of a panic where it would reboot automatically after the core dump?
      - Karunamon 9y ago
        Yeah, it is. A kernel panic dumps a vague message into the middle of the screen prompting you to reboot, in a bunch of different languages.
Animats 9y ago
"We recommend that OEMs, cloud service providers, system manufacturers, software vendors and end users stop deployment of current versions." Intel seems to be saying to stop buying or deploying Broadwell and Haswell CPUs until further notice.
- arwineap 9y ago
  I may have missed the sarcasm here; but it seems they are saying to stop deployment of existing microcode updates until the fixed microcode update comes out
  - Animats 9y ago
    Intel's announcement never mentions the word "microcode". There's no reference to specific identified patches. Given that, one has to assume that the recommended remedy is not to use certain Intel hardware. PR, like contracts, has to be given the interpretation least favorable to the author.
    - lorenzhs 9y ago
      I get that it’s fun to go down all the possible ways Intel’s statement could be misinterpreted given how legal and marketing appear to have reduced it to a mostly meaningless pile of words, but the “recommendations” section of the page that is linked right after your quote contains a longer version: “We recommend that OEMs, Cloud service providers, system manufacturers, software vendors and end users stop deployment of current versions on the below platforms, as they may introduce higher than expected reboots and other unpredictable system behavior.” The “on the below platforms” bit seems to contradict your reading...
    - freehunter 9y ago
      Generally in the case of something that says "updated guidance" or is intended as a follow-up to something earlier, it pays to understand what the earlier communication was. The earlier guidance was to apply a firmware upgrade. The updated guidance is to not apply the firmware upgrade.
alvil 9y ago
Fuck your causes. Jail Krzanich.
jumpkickhit 9y ago
Will Intel release it as a patch/firmware for those of us who have hardware by OEMs that aren't likely to offer anything?
- dharmab 9y ago
  These fixes are typically deployed as microcode updates, which can be loaded by the operating system during the boot process.
  - sverige 9y ago
    Interestingly enough, on HP's website with the security bulletin on Meltdown and Spectre, they have brief description of the vulnerabilities and a list of their many models. [1] A few days ago, this had a schedule of microcode updates, with some models showing a date that the update had already been released, and most others showing anticipated release dates, with many (including one of my laptops) showing an anticipated release date of February 9 for the microcode. Now they all show "TBD." And fwiw, I have heard a lot of people say bad things about HP products, but I have found their support to be much better than average. They are generally on point with fixing vulns, at least in my limited experience. [1] https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c05869091 https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c05869091
    - iforgotpassword 9y ago
      Never dealt with their enterprise/server stuff, but the consumer end is a fucking nightmare. The website is shitty by itself, but the best part was that until recently, some very smart folks at HP decided to use the user-agent string to determine the OS of the visitor and then only show according drivers. So there I was with my Linux system trying to download WiFi drivers for Windows which I just couldn't find, I was close to freaking out. I only realized this when I tried again the next day, coincidentally using a Windows machine. They added an option to switch the OS by now but man, I had some nice insults ready for the genius coming up with this... Too bad WiFi reception was just as shitty under Windows, literally no signal next room. Oh and the USB ports didn't work properly under Linux but OK, the system wasn't advertised as Linux compatible anyways.
top_post 9y ago
Let's not forget, this stuff is very very hard. That needs to be appreciated. But man, Intel be fuckin' up so bad right now.
geertj 9y ago
Is anyone else finding the use of the first person singular in this post annoying? ("I apologize" vs "We apologize"). The previous post was the same. Since this was certainly highly edited by corp comms, it's hard to believe it's coincidental. It's as if Intel as a company is not taking ownership.
amluto 9y ago
I saw some mention earlier of known-bad microcode updates. I assume that's what's going on.
RachelF 9y ago
Linus is not mincing his words on this issue: "Patches slammed as 'complete and utter garbage' as Chipzilla U-turns on microcode" https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/22/intel_spectre_fix_linux/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/22/intel_spectre_fix_l...

105 points by bhauer 9y ago

I'd be interested to actually see a discussion of what the reboot issue was. However, it's good news for everyone who uses affected products that Intel has produced a working fix.

barbegal 9y ago
I would presume that something this low level is quite commercially sensitive so unfortunately we might never find out. As far as I can tell they have not released any technical information about how the original microcode update worked.
- aroman 9y ago
  Security through obscurity at its finest, sadly.
  - knodi 9y ago
    It worked for them for so long. Old habits die hard but die they must.
    - kzrdude 9y ago
      They don't seem to be dying

dralley 9y ago

"reboot" Crash. My PC does not normally reboot without me having asked it to. If it does so, it's a crash (unless it's fucking windows update).

nugi 9y ago
Yup, its like an automaker issuing a service bulliten for 'unintentional parking', or 'rapid decelleration'. I get there must always be some marketing involved, but that breaks down fast when it just feels dishonest. That is fast becoming a trend with Intel it seems. And intel desprately needs trust from an industury that depends on them. I really hope they can refocus, and not die a slow death of 'everything's fine'.
- devopsforlyfe 9y ago
  Apple did it since approximately forever for kernel crashes as well. Anything to avoid any agency and shift the blame onto the user. https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare/images/en_US/osx/shut_down.png https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare...
  - anonred 9y ago
    From the same page: > Your computer restarted because of a problem: https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare/images/en_US/osx/panic.png https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare... > Your computer was restarted because of a problem: https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare/images/en_US/osx/restarted_problem.png https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare...
  - anyfoo 9y ago
    Isn't that the message you get if you forcefully power off (long-press power) a hanging mac, instead of a panic where it would reboot automatically after the core dump?
    - Karunamon 9y ago
      Yeah, it is. A kernel panic dumps a vague message into the middle of the screen prompting you to reboot, in a bunch of different languages.

Animats 9y ago

"We recommend that OEMs, cloud service providers, system manufacturers, software vendors and end users stop deployment of current versions." Intel seems to be saying to stop buying or deploying Broadwell and Haswell CPUs until further notice.

arwineap 9y ago
I may have missed the sarcasm here; but it seems they are saying to stop deployment of existing microcode updates until the fixed microcode update comes out
- Animats 9y ago
  Intel's announcement never mentions the word "microcode". There's no reference to specific identified patches. Given that, one has to assume that the recommended remedy is not to use certain Intel hardware. PR, like contracts, has to be given the interpretation least favorable to the author.
  - lorenzhs 9y ago
    I get that it’s fun to go down all the possible ways Intel’s statement could be misinterpreted given how legal and marketing appear to have reduced it to a mostly meaningless pile of words, but the “recommendations” section of the page that is linked right after your quote contains a longer version: “We recommend that OEMs, Cloud service providers, system manufacturers, software vendors and end users stop deployment of current versions on the below platforms, as they may introduce higher than expected reboots and other unpredictable system behavior.” The “on the below platforms” bit seems to contradict your reading...
  - freehunter 9y ago
    Generally in the case of something that says "updated guidance" or is intended as a follow-up to something earlier, it pays to understand what the earlier communication was. The earlier guidance was to apply a firmware upgrade. The updated guidance is to not apply the firmware upgrade.

alvil 9y ago

Fuck your causes. Jail Krzanich.

jumpkickhit 9y ago

Will Intel release it as a patch/firmware for those of us who have hardware by OEMs that aren't likely to offer anything?

dharmab 9y ago
These fixes are typically deployed as microcode updates, which can be loaded by the operating system during the boot process.
- sverige 9y ago
  Interestingly enough, on HP's website with the security bulletin on Meltdown and Spectre, they have brief description of the vulnerabilities and a list of their many models. [1] A few days ago, this had a schedule of microcode updates, with some models showing a date that the update had already been released, and most others showing anticipated release dates, with many (including one of my laptops) showing an anticipated release date of February 9 for the microcode. Now they all show "TBD." And fwiw, I have heard a lot of people say bad things about HP products, but I have found their support to be much better than average. They are generally on point with fixing vulns, at least in my limited experience. [1] https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c05869091 https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c05869091
  - iforgotpassword 9y ago
    Never dealt with their enterprise/server stuff, but the consumer end is a fucking nightmare. The website is shitty by itself, but the best part was that until recently, some very smart folks at HP decided to use the user-agent string to determine the OS of the visitor and then only show according drivers. So there I was with my Linux system trying to download WiFi drivers for Windows which I just couldn't find, I was close to freaking out. I only realized this when I tried again the next day, coincidentally using a Windows machine. They added an option to switch the OS by now but man, I had some nice insults ready for the genius coming up with this... Too bad WiFi reception was just as shitty under Windows, literally no signal next room. Oh and the USB ports didn't work properly under Linux but OK, the system wasn't advertised as Linux compatible anyways.

top_post 9y ago

Let's not forget, this stuff is very very hard. That needs to be appreciated. But man, Intel be fuckin' up so bad right now.

geertj 9y ago

Is anyone else finding the use of the first person singular in this post annoying? ("I apologize" vs "We apologize"). The previous post was the same. Since this was certainly highly edited by corp comms, it's hard to believe it's coincidental. It's as if Intel as a company is not taking ownership.

amluto 9y ago

I saw some mention earlier of known-bad microcode updates. I assume that's what's going on.

RachelF 9y ago

Linus is not mincing his words on this issue: "Patches slammed as 'complete and utter garbage' as Chipzilla U-turns on microcode" https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/22/intel_spectre_fix_linux/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/22/intel_spectre_fix_l...