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My Forgotten Language: the brain can lose and reclaim an abandoned mother tongue
- wwweston 9y agoBack in the 90s I took a linguistics class and wanted my semester paper to be a review of the literature on this topic. I started my research and found nothing. I figured it was my research skills falling short and I didn't know the right terminology and places to look. So I asked my professor. He suggested talking to other faculty. I did. They gave me some terminology suggestions buuuut.... also told me that they didn't think there was much out there on the topic. In fact, one of them told me I almost certainly wouldn't find anything. And he was right (then, having burned half the semester chasing down a dead end and facing the choice between doing original research in two months vs changing topic, I picked human usage of computer language, which got me a C+ because the prof was adamant computer languages aren't human languages). Anyway, I was astounded that this aspect of acquisition wasn't well-studied, and I'm glad to see it has been since. Edit: I never meant to contend that computer languages are human languages in the sense that the former can function in every way the later can -- so I wasn't suggesting that anyone should say "C is a language just as Spanish is a language." But I did argue that programming languages come by their name honestly, are meant to communicate between humans, and most importantly find their way into language colloquially, and as such deserve attention from linguists. My prof seemed to have engaged with the paper as if I were making the "C is like Spanish!" argument, whether that's because (a) I wasn't clear enough in my writing (b) he wasn't paying close attention or (c) there's something else that eluded me is left as an exercise for... well, me, and apparently hacker news participants who want to take it up as a matter of discussion. :)
- thaumasiotes 9y ago> I picked human usage of computer language, which got me a C+ because the prof was adamant computer languages aren't human languages It's not like he was wrong about this?
- fao_ 9y agoComputer languages are human languages, because the purpose is to communicate to humans what you're doing. Unless you want to write raw bytecode?
- taejo 9y agoThe same is true of the diagrams in IKEA instructions, but that doesn't mean that the human brain works with them in the same way as it works with human languages.
- marci 9y agoAnd now, so many more questions. I wonder: - how the brain "reads" an Ikea instruction? - is it similar to non-verbal communication? - do you vocalize an interpretation of the instructions? - 3D projection in your head? - What are the differences between seeing an object, hearing a word that represent it, reading the word? (Now thinking about sign-language, braille...) I just picked an Instruction set to see, but realised I was already biased with the expectation I had of how I would decipher it.
- kazinator 9y agoThat's just equivocating on the definition of the term "human language"; that's not what a linguist means by human language. I.e. your argument isn't really that Javascript or C are human languages as defined by the linguistics professor but that he or she ought to augment or alter his or her definition of "human language" to include them.
- kazinator 9y ago> which got me a C+ because the prof was adamant computer languages aren't human languages I'd have argued exactly the same thing, because it's basically true, but given you a C++.
- wwweston 9y agoThat would have been beautiful. :)
- jmkirby 9y agoEWD 667 Dijkstra's "On the foolishness if natural language programming" "... the last decades have shown a sharp decline of people's mastery of their own language." I have immediately to mind, despite it's not by far the most eloquent of EWDs letters on language. A moment of your search engine of choice, reading the results of his letters found by the qualification of "+ poetry" I enthusiastically propose to you despite I vaguely recall losing my argument with my English language tutor for my assertion that the"interactive reference" to a broad body is valid argument if proposed by requirement prior to reading my essay. The man first to be described as computer programmer or scientist of computer languages challenges me not to pursue the subject of his renown, but to learn Dutch so to learn instead of computing the tremendous subtlety of humanity which I have found overwhelming whenever I come across his expositions. The Victorian era I believe saw this distinction between man and nature which found exegesis and celebration in formal gardens and arguably even though the assiduous endeavour of naturalists and explorers in this age of classification, of delineation: Human Above Cruel Raw Nature. Nature seen as the result of forces and devoid of innate intelligence or even intrinsic logic possessed by itself and not discoverable by the obsessions of man's inquisition. Nature was about to give up its its all. Then Man would stand supreme, as if asked to defend the thesis by a passing hurricane. Are we not learning glyphic or visual narrative speech at considerable pace of adoption, right now in the west? Was the SMS messaging apotheosis the acceptance of conducting transactions in practical life circumstances entirely via emotional expression in a exceptionally complicated indirect tense and at times by suggestion and inferences avoiding noun and verb entirely? I'm not a linguist nor even familiar enough with the formalities so very helpful if not essential to discuss this subject which I find increasingly fascinating, if you can forgive me my inclination to attempt my expression in certain expectation of some technical error. But I hope my impression conveyed, at least, that I am sure that as a species the result of the communication explosion since the internet, must be a renaissance in language development and expression. I am unsure if I can articulate what's been a nagging feeling I'm yet to have attempted expressing to any audience, but if you take the extinction of historical languages to be accelerated by the isolation from urbanisation and other factors, if isolation from other speakers or potential new speakers is the past language killer, then talking to grandchildren over Skype might enable at least colloquialisms and dialects still extant or somehow developing to persist in the future?
- nicolas_t 9y agoI still regularly meet expats living in a foreign country who believe that it's better for their kid not to learn both their father tongue and mother tongue together with the language from the country they live in so that they don't get confused. It's sad because it's a richness they could give their kids but don't because of fear or bad advice.
- supreme_sublime 9y agoI think some of it might be the convenience of being able to speak to one another without the children knowing what is being said as well. My father's parents knew German and he wasn't taught, but recalled many times where his parents would speak German to each other in front of him, ostensibly so the children couldn't understand. But I think a lot of the reason it is lost is just how it is unnecessary. If everyone understands English and primarily speaks it, there is no real need, or opportunity, to learn/use a second language.
- denzil_correa 9y ago> I think some of it might be the convenience of being able to speak to one another without the children knowing what is being said as well. My father's parents knew German and he wasn't taught, but recalled many times where his parents would speak German to each other in front of him, ostensibly so the children couldn't understand. It was the same with my parents but more out of necessity than a deliberate act. I grew up with 4 languages but my parents spoke another 2. It would be difficult to understand those extra 2 languages as they had different scripts and were really different in nature. The result was that my parents used it as an encryption framework to have a private conversation while I was around. I understood zilch.
- otoburb 9y ago>>If everyone understands English and primarily speaks it, there is no real need, or opportunity, to learn/use a second language. This hits upon the key motivating driver (or lack thereof) of language acquisition: multiple languages generally act as a force multipler[1], but aren't as "useful" when considered in isolation. The other problem with language acquisition from a purely utilitarian aspect is the fairly large time commitment which might be better spent elsewhere (e.g. studying core subjects in the resident language). But the paradox of the force multiplier factor is that you ideally want a fairly strong base to amplify in the first case (e.g. Math/Science). Even though people may not break it down this way, this seems to be the intuitive reasoning use by [semi-]multilingual parents, and is often another reason why the "culture/tradition" or "fun" aspects of language learning are emphasized as compensating factors. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_multiplication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_multiplication
- GuyPostington 9y agoWhen I get drunk enough I'll get a super thick accent and my words will switch over to ${OTHER_LANG}.
- jmkirby 9y agoI can imagine there is benefit to the illusion of perfect mutual understanding between two men when both are considerably intoxicated. The likely defusing of circumstances otherwise liable to encourage violence, for example. But I have never found any satisfying reason for this phenomenon of mutual understanding at the apparent peak of drunkenness.* I think the extreme effect of alcohol in this case is actually fairly well known, despite the thought occurred to a friend who managed to turn his own experience into a undergraduate study, that the evidence is infrequent due to the required amount of alcohol exceeding most physical tolerances. I have been convinced without any evidence, since university days, that the mind can become exceptionally plastic under extreme effect of alcohol., [Edited, I left in a section that added nothing so withdrew it] Obviously little formal study is probably done, but since I have one nagging fear of failing to discover something so vital in plain sight but missed for sake of my narrowness in vision, and in my fear of the damage done that stays with me despite hangover all forgotten, I dearly should love to hear of science in answer to the phonomenon. Did the unknown language overflow and get routed to the disused section of my brain that once awaited regional programming and can utter or at least gurgle every human sound? That might trigger a familiar and comfortable and safe feeling, the exciting of brain disused since infancy.
- jogjayr 9y ago> That’s why if someone who knows a language never speaks it again after age 7, there’s a good chance they’ll forget most of it. But if you yank them away around age 12 or older and reintroduce them to it 30 years later, there’s a good chance they won’t miss a beat, Hernandez says. This squares with my experience. I learned Kannada from age 4 to 7, living in Bangalore. My sister, 4 years older than me, also learned it, and can still read and understand the language. I, on the other hand, had forgotten Kannada within 8 months of leaving Bangalore for Mumbai, where it's not commonly spoken.
- westiseast 9y agoFantastic - this has been on my mind recently. Moved back from China to the UK with our 3 & 5 year olds whose mother language was Chinese. I’d assumed there would be some kind of struggle getting them adjusted to English - exactly the opposite. Now both kids have 95% lost their Chinese, and I’m having to ‘forcibly’ reintroduce it. Kind of amazed me.
- jason_slack 9y agoInteresting this is the case. I am trying to teach my 16 year old Chinese and she is grasping it really well. Myself, I have to work harder to retain remembering how to write characters. If I don't write it, I lose it. I do remember just fine when using pinyin on my phone though. I dont seem to be losing character recognition, just stroke order when writing manually on paper.
- westiseast 9y agoI think it just wasn't sunk in very well - the kids were both fluent at their level (a 3/5 year old isn't ultra-proficient in any language, but it was their primary form of communication), but they just very quickly dropped it because it wasn't useful anymore. Not sure what level you're at - the hand writing is hard, takes Chinese people years and years of repetition and constant exposure. I always thought learning reading/typing Chinese is an essential part of learning Chinese, but hand-writing it is an optional (or something you can allow to progress much much slower). I read and write at an HSK6 level, but I doubt I could hand-write more than 1000 characters from memory. Meh.
- jason_slack 9y agoI read and write at about HSK 5 right now. My oral is not at that level. I often dont hear the correct tones, nor speak the correct tones. I love handwriting characters! Every day I try and learn one new character. Every week I review the characters I learned that week and write over and over as many sentences as I can think of. Each month I use one Sunday to try and write the 1500 most commonly used characters to see how many I can remember. (https://store.mandarinposter.com/shop/1500-character-mandarin-poster https://store.mandarinposter.com/shop/1500-character-mandari...). My wife thinks I use entirely to much paper. :-)
- gd2 9y agoAn older friend had a stroke, in recovery she switched to having better communication ability in her nearly abandoned native Spanish, and had greater difficulties communicating in her everyday dominate language for like 70 years- English - of her 75 years.
- pinko 9y agoThere's a story just like this in the Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat, I believe...
- toomanybeersies 9y agoThe same thing has happened to my grandfather. He's been speaking English for about 60 of his 80 years, and reverted back to Dutch for a while after a major stroke. Luckily there was a Dutch speaking nurse, because none of his friends and family speak Dutch.
- corpMaverick 9y agoArturo Hernandez teaches this coursera class. https://www.coursera.org/learn/bilingual https://www.coursera.org/learn/bilingual
- Abishek_Muthian 9y agoNative Tamil 'speaker' here. My parents put me in English medium school with Hindi as second language (Several years of Sanskrit as well) to survive outside south India (they suffered outside South India, for not knowing Hindi; they trained themselves in it and gave easier way to me learn other languages). But since I didn't have formal education in Tamil, a highly sophisticated language evolved over (2000-3000 years); I can't write or read genuine version of it (can do some guess work based on familiar characters from common media). But I can speak in Tamil fluently since my family speaks in Tamil, also at several times my friends who are into Tamil literature have been amazed by my choice of vocabulary when speaking in Tamil. I think, 1. I compensate for my lack of knowledge in reading/writing Tamil by listening keenly to the language. 2. I can say from first hand experience that, the OP is also benefitted by living in an environment where he gets to listen to Tamil quite regularly; enough to give him understanding of the language.
- dorfsmay 9y agoThe concept of needing more energy when speaking a 2dn language really resonates with my experience: While learning English as a 2nd language, we noticed that when in a group of nonnative speaker, the who does the talking had a harder time understanding the native speakers than the others from the group. This never failed, whoever spoke had more problem to understand than he listeners. Maybe an explanation is that the extra cognitive energy uses to speak prevented as good comprehension as when fully spending the energy/focus on listening.
- 8bitsrule 9y agoOne of the virtues of being fluent in two or more languages: many times in my life I've seen some great opportunities for interpreters.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]