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>Your argument seems to be that girls are so suggestible that any discouragement easily bounces them back in line. They're _children_. Girls or boys, having an

>Your argument seems to be that girls are so suggestible that any discouragement easily bounces them back in line. They're _children_. Girls or boys, having an authority figure saying "you don't want to do this" will mean most won't do it. It isn't about that girls are any more suggestible than boys, it's that in this area girls get more discouragement than boys do.

ravenstine 9y ago
I'm not saying you are wrong, but has there ever been research that suggests this is actually as widespread a problem as suggested? Otherwise, my main point still stands that there are other factors in play during adulthood, besides systematic bias, that would explain the lack of women in STEM and why the desire for gender parity is absurd.
- annabellish 9y ago
  There is some. It's extremely difficult to pin this kind of thing down, unfortunately. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311595274_The_Roehampton_Annual_Computing_Education_Report_2015_data_from_England https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311595274_The_Roeha... for example covers how gendered schools specifically tackle this, and though most students don't go to gendered schools it's still indicative. There's other pieces here and there, but nothing conclusively stating "this is why there's a gender gap". >Otherwise, my main point still stands that there are other factors in play during adulthood, besides systematic bias There are definitely other factors in play - that's my point - and I don't think we can say it's inherent to the gender. Women being under-represented in STEM is actually a very western thing, most pronounced in the US and UK, and is significantly _less_ pronounced in many other countries. We don't know precisely why, but we do know the answer needs to be complicated and is unlikely to be "women are just naturally predisposed against science, but only in these countries."
supreme_sublime 9y ago
Well, since as far as I know there's no real empirical evidence for this. I'll give my own anecdote as a man. I wasn't encouraged at all, by anyone I knew, to get a career in programming. My parents tried to block certain websites I was frequenting, my friends showed no interest at all in what I was doing. I was lucky to find online communities who did help me and encourage me. But I found those on my own through my own curiosity and desire. I never knew where it would take me and my parents thought I was wasting my time. It wasn't until I actually got a job that I got some validation by people I actually knew.
- ravenstine 9y ago
  Those in my circle of friends who made something of themselves came from difficult backgrounds that didn't encourage them to do what they're doing now. Granted, this is anecdotal, but this is the perspective I'm coming from. I myself have always been averse to encouragement because I don't like doing things to please people or for reasons other than purely my own, but I'm probably a minority when it comes to that. When it comes to women, I do think there's a widespread cultural problem of discouragement that tells them they are either not smart enough or won't be happy doing X. That is something we should definitely change, but if we instead encourage women into things they're not terribly interested in, we're not going to get the results we delude ourselves into believing are attainable. Removing barriers is preferable to tilting the playing field, which should be insulting to everyone.
- annabellish 9y ago
  I think one of the problems this discussion has is people see "girls, on average, are discouraged more often than boys" and actually read "all girls have it worse than all boys and no boys had anything but a spiffing time". Now, I'm not saying you're doing this, and I'm definitely not saying your experiences aren't valuable, but I am saying that your experiences are fully compatible with girls recieving more discouragement, and that your experiences would be improved by the collective understanding which would help us rectify the problem.
  - supreme_sublime 9y ago
    I don't really think that people should need encouragement to do things they want to do. Some might, but if someone discouraging you slightly by saying "you wouldn't be interested in that" succeeds in discouraging you, I'd argue you didn't really want to do it. Edit: To be clear, I'm not arguing that the active discouragement is a good thing. I think parents especially, should enable their children's constructive interests. If I had a son who liked baseball (a sport I hate) more than basketball (a sport I love), I might try to get him to do both, but ultimately would defer to him.

ravenstine 9y ago

I'm not saying you are wrong, but has there ever been research that suggests this is actually as widespread a problem as suggested? Otherwise, my main point still stands that there are other factors in play during adulthood, besides systematic bias, that would explain the lack of women in STEM and why the desire for gender parity is absurd.

annabellish 9y ago
There is some. It's extremely difficult to pin this kind of thing down, unfortunately. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311595274_The_Roehampton_Annual_Computing_Education_Report_2015_data_from_England https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311595274_The_Roeha... for example covers how gendered schools specifically tackle this, and though most students don't go to gendered schools it's still indicative. There's other pieces here and there, but nothing conclusively stating "this is why there's a gender gap". >Otherwise, my main point still stands that there are other factors in play during adulthood, besides systematic bias There are definitely other factors in play - that's my point - and I don't think we can say it's inherent to the gender. Women being under-represented in STEM is actually a very western thing, most pronounced in the US and UK, and is significantly _less_ pronounced in many other countries. We don't know precisely why, but we do know the answer needs to be complicated and is unlikely to be "women are just naturally predisposed against science, but only in these countries."

supreme_sublime 9y ago

Well, since as far as I know there's no real empirical evidence for this. I'll give my own anecdote as a man. I wasn't encouraged at all, by anyone I knew, to get a career in programming. My parents tried to block certain websites I was frequenting, my friends showed no interest at all in what I was doing. I was lucky to find online communities who did help me and encourage me. But I found those on my own through my own curiosity and desire. I never knew where it would take me and my parents thought I was wasting my time. It wasn't until I actually got a job that I got some validation by people I actually knew.

ravenstine 9y ago
Those in my circle of friends who made something of themselves came from difficult backgrounds that didn't encourage them to do what they're doing now. Granted, this is anecdotal, but this is the perspective I'm coming from. I myself have always been averse to encouragement because I don't like doing things to please people or for reasons other than purely my own, but I'm probably a minority when it comes to that. When it comes to women, I do think there's a widespread cultural problem of discouragement that tells them they are either not smart enough or won't be happy doing X. That is something we should definitely change, but if we instead encourage women into things they're not terribly interested in, we're not going to get the results we delude ourselves into believing are attainable. Removing barriers is preferable to tilting the playing field, which should be insulting to everyone.
annabellish 9y ago
I think one of the problems this discussion has is people see "girls, on average, are discouraged more often than boys" and actually read "all girls have it worse than all boys and no boys had anything but a spiffing time". Now, I'm not saying you're doing this, and I'm definitely not saying your experiences aren't valuable, but I am saying that your experiences are fully compatible with girls recieving more discouragement, and that your experiences would be improved by the collective understanding which would help us rectify the problem.
- supreme_sublime 9y ago
  I don't really think that people should need encouragement to do things they want to do. Some might, but if someone discouraging you slightly by saying "you wouldn't be interested in that" succeeds in discouraging you, I'd argue you didn't really want to do it. Edit: To be clear, I'm not arguing that the active discouragement is a good thing. I think parents especially, should enable their children's constructive interests. If I had a son who liked baseball (a sport I hate) more than basketball (a sport I love), I might try to get him to do both, but ultimately would defer to him.