4 ms·

> Research on actual hiring shows female Ph.D.s are disproportionately less likely to apply for tenure-track positions, but if they do apply, they are more like

by rdtsc 9y ago

> Research on actual hiring shows female Ph.D.s are disproportionately less likely to apply for tenure-track positions, but if they do apply, they are more likely to be hired, sometimes by a 2:1 ratio. I think the society and culture needs to work a bit harder to promote the idea of a girl as a professor, scientist, hacker, math wiz etc. Not just lip service but change the stories, the cartoons, movies, games etc. For too long in popular culture, starting early on girls are just princesses, then then later just a romantic interest side-kick. I noticed with my own daughter, she really wants identify with bad guys in the cartoons because even though they are naughty they have the coolest toys, rule the world and tell their minions what to do. But she finds it hard because the majority of the "cool" roles are taken by boys. Yes by the time it comes to apply for tenure track positions, girls have already been told verbally and non-verbally many times -- "this is not for you, probably". I remember in Eastern Europe in primary education, girls and women were more interested in math than boys. I was getting help with calculus homework from them. My high school CS teacher was a professional programmer before and she was an inspiration many girls and to boys alike, including me. She had a large book on Pascal and if we were good we could stay after school and do exercises from it. So I have seen it work in practice -- it is possible to have a culture and attitude where girls see math, science and CS as appealing disciplines. On the other hand, I think it is worth to acknowledge that maybe there is also an element were women just don't want to do CS or math. Even if they had positive role models. I know we all think tech is super awesome, getting paid to do what we love, implement and develop cool algorithms, etc. But what if sitting in a cubicle inverting binary trees all day, mostly in isolation, doesn't appeal to others, and maybe those other are more likely to be women. Is that controversial to say? I imagine it might be soul crushing for some even if they were promised to get RSUs, options and a large salary.

dnautics 9y ago
>I think the society and culture needs to work a bit harder to promote the idea of a girl as a professor, scientist, hacker, math wiz etc I keep being reminded of Phillip greenspun's quip: "A lot more men than women choose to do seemingly irrational things such as become petty criminals, fly homebuilt helicopters, play video games, and keep tropical fish as pets (98 percent of the attendees at the American Cichlid Association convention that I last attended were male). Should we be surprised that it is mostly men who spend 10 years banging their heads against an equation-filled blackboard in hopes of landing a $35,000/year post-doc job?"
- _jal 9y ago
  Like a lot of things he says, it is a cute just-so story, but obscures more than it reveals. Just a few things to try to slot in: differences in participation in "male" professions over short time periods, differences between cultures, differences between STEM and non-STEM higher ed with very similar same economic outcomes.
  - dnautics 9y ago
    It is a just so story, but we also should ask ourselves, do we want to be encouraging women (or men for that matter) into a life of misery?
  - vixen99 9y ago
    Please do share the specifics of these 'cute just-so stories' so we're assured you're not just making a suggestive generalization.
    - rdtsc 9y ago
      https://blogs.harvard.edu/philg/2005/01/21/larry-summers-women-and-jobs-in-math-and-science/ https://blogs.harvard.edu/philg/2005/01/21/larry-summers-wom... (Disclaimer: I just found the quote on Google. I don't know much about the author and his writing. And so I don't somehow endorse it or agree with it more just because I pasted the link).
troupe 9y ago
> maybe those other are more likely to be women. Is that controversial to say? James Damore can probably tell you if people find this type of statement controversial or not. :)
UncleMeat 9y ago
> But what if sitting in a cubicle inverting binary trees all day, mostly in isolation, doesn't appeal to others, and maybe those other are more likely to be women. It is hard to buy this as the cause when we've seen the percentage of women grow and shrink dramatically over time. Is this work lifestyle so different from software engineering in the 80s when representation in cs programs was far better?
- rdtsc 9y ago
  > Is this work lifestyle so different from software engineering in the 80s when representation in cs programs was far better? Good point. I don't have an answer there. I can think of a few things though: * Maybe other professions changed and become more appealing so more women found it easier to become doctors or say lawyers. Maybe those women went into STEM before and now with more access to scholarships they could do something else? * Culture changed. There was a great push in the 50s and 60s for STEM to overcome the Soviets, who were seen as winning the space race. So there were more programs to get children interested in science, and somehow it resulted in girls of that era being more attracted to it. By the 80s they grew up to get jobs so would be contributing to the statistics. * The new tech companies that grew rapidly had more of a toxic male "brogrammer" culture unwelcome to women, and maybe paradoxically a more traditional places like NASA or IBM where people wore formal attire and pocket protectors also was a place were there was less harassment and more professionalism. As those new "startups" become large tech giants they had failed to pay attention to harassment and behavior of its "ninja rockstar programmers" * Gaming culture. Maybe computer games started to become more popular. Those were geared more towards boys, as a result more boys got to spend time on computers, at first playing games, then trying to hack games and write their own. But I imagine women were always underrepresented in STEM and computing and there is no one single factor. Was 80s a "golden age" of STEM for women? What was the percentage difference. How did it compare to representation in CS only vs STEM. I couldn't find good answers, maybe you'd have more luck.

by rdtsc 9y ago

dnautics 9y ago

>I think the society and culture needs to work a bit harder to promote the idea of a girl as a professor, scientist, hacker, math wiz etc I keep being reminded of Phillip greenspun's quip: "A lot more men than women choose to do seemingly irrational things such as become petty criminals, fly homebuilt helicopters, play video games, and keep tropical fish as pets (98 percent of the attendees at the American Cichlid Association convention that I last attended were male). Should we be surprised that it is mostly men who spend 10 years banging their heads against an equation-filled blackboard in hopes of landing a $35,000/year post-doc job?"

_jal 9y ago
Like a lot of things he says, it is a cute just-so story, but obscures more than it reveals. Just a few things to try to slot in: differences in participation in "male" professions over short time periods, differences between cultures, differences between STEM and non-STEM higher ed with very similar same economic outcomes.
- dnautics 9y ago
  It is a just so story, but we also should ask ourselves, do we want to be encouraging women (or men for that matter) into a life of misery?
- vixen99 9y ago
  Please do share the specifics of these 'cute just-so stories' so we're assured you're not just making a suggestive generalization.
  - rdtsc 9y ago
    https://blogs.harvard.edu/philg/2005/01/21/larry-summers-women-and-jobs-in-math-and-science/ https://blogs.harvard.edu/philg/2005/01/21/larry-summers-wom... (Disclaimer: I just found the quote on Google. I don't know much about the author and his writing. And so I don't somehow endorse it or agree with it more just because I pasted the link).

troupe 9y ago

> maybe those other are more likely to be women. Is that controversial to say? James Damore can probably tell you if people find this type of statement controversial or not. :)

UncleMeat 9y ago

> But what if sitting in a cubicle inverting binary trees all day, mostly in isolation, doesn't appeal to others, and maybe those other are more likely to be women. It is hard to buy this as the cause when we've seen the percentage of women grow and shrink dramatically over time. Is this work lifestyle so different from software engineering in the 80s when representation in cs programs was far better?

rdtsc 9y ago
> Is this work lifestyle so different from software engineering in the 80s when representation in cs programs was far better? Good point. I don't have an answer there. I can think of a few things though: * Maybe other professions changed and become more appealing so more women found it easier to become doctors or say lawyers. Maybe those women went into STEM before and now with more access to scholarships they could do something else? * Culture changed. There was a great push in the 50s and 60s for STEM to overcome the Soviets, who were seen as winning the space race. So there were more programs to get children interested in science, and somehow it resulted in girls of that era being more attracted to it. By the 80s they grew up to get jobs so would be contributing to the statistics. * The new tech companies that grew rapidly had more of a toxic male "brogrammer" culture unwelcome to women, and maybe paradoxically a more traditional places like NASA or IBM where people wore formal attire and pocket protectors also was a place were there was less harassment and more professionalism. As those new "startups" become large tech giants they had failed to pay attention to harassment and behavior of its "ninja rockstar programmers" * Gaming culture. Maybe computer games started to become more popular. Those were geared more towards boys, as a result more boys got to spend time on computers, at first playing games, then trying to hack games and write their own. But I imagine women were always underrepresented in STEM and computing and there is no one single factor. Was 80s a "golden age" of STEM for women? What was the percentage difference. How did it compare to representation in CS only vs STEM. I couldn't find good answers, maybe you'd have more luck.