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> ... I've also seen Americans in IT who can be very blunt. I attribute it ... to the [autism] spectrum. Please stop. It's unhealthy to pretend that undesired

by dpark 9y ago

> ... I've also seen Americans in IT who can be very blunt. I attribute it ... to the [autism] spectrum. Please stop. It's unhealthy to pretend that undesired behaviors in IT are generally the result of autism. It perpetuates an unhealthy culture by essentially saying that guys (because it's only guys who are excused this way) in IT are not responsible for their behavior. It's also insulting to people with autism to lump their legitimate social difficulties in with people who are simply choosing to be assholes. If a salesperson or marketer or artist or executive is blunt/rude/an asshole, no one assumes it's because they're autistic. It's assumed that this is part of their personality, because they find it more effective to communicate this way (or in some cases, that they're simply bullies). There is no indication I see that Torvalds is autistic. He's certainly not socially awkward. He manages an organization of thousands of contributors very effectively. If he's blunt or rude, it's because he chooses to be.

Fnoord 9y ago
> It's unhealthy to pretend that undesired behaviors in IT are generally the result of autism. Not what I did; no need to start bifurcating. What I asserted (or, what I meant) is that people on the spectrum are more common in IT. I never said that everyone in IT is autistic. I never argued Torvalds has autism. > It perpetuates an unhealthy culture by essentially saying that guys (because it's only guys who are excused this way) No idea where you got either of these red herrings from. That's certainly not what I asserted. I do want to note though that women with autism largely go un(der)diagnosed. > It's also insulting to people with autism Hi, I have autism, as I acknowledged in another post throughout this thread. There's a rule on HN that you shouldn't assume the worst explanation from a post. Well, you just did, cause why would I willingly try to insult everyone with autism if I have it myself? How that make any sense whatsoever? I don't see at all why my post can be considered offensive unless you resort to things like bifurcations... > It's also insulting to people with autism to lump their legitimate social difficulties in with people who are simply choosing to be assholes. People with autism need to function in a non-autistic society. The current therapy I am getting is focussed on that. Using autism as an excuse isn't acceptable; its considered counter-productive. > There is no indication I see that Torvalds is autistic. He's certainly not socially awkward. He manages an organization of thousands of contributors very effectively. I don't find him very strong, socially. Read his body language while he's giving a talk. He's shy, at the very least. Just because someone can express themselves easily via e-mail doesn't mean they're not socially awkward. Also, what I quoted is not mutually exclusive. More importantly, there is no such thing as a binary autism flag; it is a spectrum. What Torvalds suffers from is that he expresses his anger with unnecessary cursewords in order to give his arguments strength (a fallacy). To name another example: I've never seen RMS do that, but I have seen TdR do that. I find neither of them particularly strong socially, either.
- dpark 9y ago
  > Not what I did; no need to start bifurcating. I'm not sure what you mean by "bifurcating" in this context but this is exactly what you did. You literally said that you see blunt communication in IT and attribute it to autism spectrum disorders. > What I asserted (or, what I meant) is that people on the spectrum are more common in IT. I never said that everyone in IT is autistic. I never argued Torvalds has autism. I did not claim that you said everyone in IT is autistic. I'm saying that your assumption that blunt/direct/whatever behavior implies autism is both incorrect and unhealthy. People with autism spectrum disorders may be over-represented in IT (people claim this; I have no idea if it's actually true), but even if so, it's still a small percentage of total people in IT. Attributing entire classes of common behavior to autism is incorrect. You did not directly claim that Torvalds has autism but you did assert that you assume autism in the face of Torvalds-style behavior. > Hi, I have autism, as I acknowledged in another post throughout this thread. There's a rule on HN that you shouldn't assume the worst explanation from a post. Well, you just did, cause why would I willingly try to insult everyone with autism if I have it myself? How that make any sense whatsoever? I didn't say you're trying to insult people with autism. I said you're doing it. It's undoubtedly unintentional, but it's absolutely insulting to take an undesired behavior and associate it with an entire group. If I say that when I see fat people, I assume they're Americans, that's insulting to Americans. The fact that I happen to be American doesn't change that. > People with autism need to function in a non-autistic society. The current therapy I am getting is focussed on that. Using autism as an excuse isn't acceptable; its considered counter-productive. Assholes also need to function in society. Pretending that they're autistic doesn't help anyone. It certainly doesn't help people with autism. I'm not in any way saying that people with autism spectrum disorders don't need to function in society or that autism should be an "excuse" for anything. I'm actually saying very much the opposite. Rude behavior should not be attributed to autism, partly because that's not a valid excuse but also because most rude behavior does not come from people with autism spectrum disorders. > I don't find him very strong, socially. Read his body language while he's giving a talk. He's shy, at the very least. Just because someone can express themselves easily via e-mail doesn't mean they're not socially awkward. I probably overstated when I said he's "certainly not socially awkward". He is a little awkward in talks. However, lots of people (most, probably) are uncomfortable with public speaking in front of large crowds, and I don't think his level of awkwardness seems unusual. And of course shyness is not synonymous with autism. I still don't see any evidence that Torvalds has any form of autistic disorder. > Also, what I quoted is not mutually exclusive. More importantly, there is no such thing as a binary autism flag; it is a spectrum. No one said there's a binary "autism" flag. > What Torvalds suffers from is that he expresses his anger with unnecessary cursewords in order to give his arguments strength (a fallacy). Torvalds is not generally criticized for "curse words". He's generally criticized for bluntly insulting people and their work. When he says someone is "fucking insane", the problem isn't the fact that he used a curse word. It's that he's insulting someone. The cursing is perhaps another layer on top, but if he dropped the word "fuck" into every email but did it politely, no one would call him an asshole for it. But I also don't think Torvalds is really "suffering" as a result of his communication style. The only negative I see is that people criticize him for it periodically. But overall it seems to be working and the negative repercussions are minimal to nonexistent. He gets attention on the issues he cares about and HN says he's mean. I doubt he loses sleep over the criticism.

by dpark 9y ago

Fnoord 9y ago

> It's unhealthy to pretend that undesired behaviors in IT are generally the result of autism. Not what I did; no need to start bifurcating. What I asserted (or, what I meant) is that people on the spectrum are more common in IT. I never said that everyone in IT is autistic. I never argued Torvalds has autism. > It perpetuates an unhealthy culture by essentially saying that guys (because it's only guys who are excused this way) No idea where you got either of these red herrings from. That's certainly not what I asserted. I do want to note though that women with autism largely go un(der)diagnosed. > It's also insulting to people with autism Hi, I have autism, as I acknowledged in another post throughout this thread. There's a rule on HN that you shouldn't assume the worst explanation from a post. Well, you just did, cause why would I willingly try to insult everyone with autism if I have it myself? How that make any sense whatsoever? I don't see at all why my post can be considered offensive unless you resort to things like bifurcations... > It's also insulting to people with autism to lump their legitimate social difficulties in with people who are simply choosing to be assholes. People with autism need to function in a non-autistic society. The current therapy I am getting is focussed on that. Using autism as an excuse isn't acceptable; its considered counter-productive. > There is no indication I see that Torvalds is autistic. He's certainly not socially awkward. He manages an organization of thousands of contributors very effectively. I don't find him very strong, socially. Read his body language while he's giving a talk. He's shy, at the very least. Just because someone can express themselves easily via e-mail doesn't mean they're not socially awkward. Also, what I quoted is not mutually exclusive. More importantly, there is no such thing as a binary autism flag; it is a spectrum. What Torvalds suffers from is that he expresses his anger with unnecessary cursewords in order to give his arguments strength (a fallacy). To name another example: I've never seen RMS do that, but I have seen TdR do that. I find neither of them particularly strong socially, either.

dpark 9y ago
> Not what I did; no need to start bifurcating. I'm not sure what you mean by "bifurcating" in this context but this is exactly what you did. You literally said that you see blunt communication in IT and attribute it to autism spectrum disorders. > What I asserted (or, what I meant) is that people on the spectrum are more common in IT. I never said that everyone in IT is autistic. I never argued Torvalds has autism. I did not claim that you said everyone in IT is autistic. I'm saying that your assumption that blunt/direct/whatever behavior implies autism is both incorrect and unhealthy. People with autism spectrum disorders may be over-represented in IT (people claim this; I have no idea if it's actually true), but even if so, it's still a small percentage of total people in IT. Attributing entire classes of common behavior to autism is incorrect. You did not directly claim that Torvalds has autism but you did assert that you assume autism in the face of Torvalds-style behavior. > Hi, I have autism, as I acknowledged in another post throughout this thread. There's a rule on HN that you shouldn't assume the worst explanation from a post. Well, you just did, cause why would I willingly try to insult everyone with autism if I have it myself? How that make any sense whatsoever? I didn't say you're trying to insult people with autism. I said you're doing it. It's undoubtedly unintentional, but it's absolutely insulting to take an undesired behavior and associate it with an entire group. If I say that when I see fat people, I assume they're Americans, that's insulting to Americans. The fact that I happen to be American doesn't change that. > People with autism need to function in a non-autistic society. The current therapy I am getting is focussed on that. Using autism as an excuse isn't acceptable; its considered counter-productive. Assholes also need to function in society. Pretending that they're autistic doesn't help anyone. It certainly doesn't help people with autism. I'm not in any way saying that people with autism spectrum disorders don't need to function in society or that autism should be an "excuse" for anything. I'm actually saying very much the opposite. Rude behavior should not be attributed to autism, partly because that's not a valid excuse but also because most rude behavior does not come from people with autism spectrum disorders. > I don't find him very strong, socially. Read his body language while he's giving a talk. He's shy, at the very least. Just because someone can express themselves easily via e-mail doesn't mean they're not socially awkward. I probably overstated when I said he's "certainly not socially awkward". He is a little awkward in talks. However, lots of people (most, probably) are uncomfortable with public speaking in front of large crowds, and I don't think his level of awkwardness seems unusual. And of course shyness is not synonymous with autism. I still don't see any evidence that Torvalds has any form of autistic disorder. > Also, what I quoted is not mutually exclusive. More importantly, there is no such thing as a binary autism flag; it is a spectrum. No one said there's a binary "autism" flag. > What Torvalds suffers from is that he expresses his anger with unnecessary cursewords in order to give his arguments strength (a fallacy). Torvalds is not generally criticized for "curse words". He's generally criticized for bluntly insulting people and their work. When he says someone is "fucking insane", the problem isn't the fact that he used a curse word. It's that he's insulting someone. The cursing is perhaps another layer on top, but if he dropped the word "fuck" into every email but did it politely, no one would call him an asshole for it. But I also don't think Torvalds is really "suffering" as a result of his communication style. The only negative I see is that people criticize him for it periodically. But overall it seems to be working and the negative repercussions are minimal to nonexistent. He gets attention on the issues he cares about and HN says he's mean. I doubt he loses sleep over the criticism.