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Well, I mean, these are not and never have been the main benefits of Bitcoin. EDIT: Thanks for the downvotes (please check out their purpose, it's not to disag

Well, I mean, these are not and never have been the main benefits of Bitcoin. EDIT: Thanks for the downvotes (please check out their purpose, it's not to disagree with people). You guys should go and read the Bitcoin Whitepaper.

JonnyNova 9y ago
They were absolutely the main features of Bitcoin when it first came around.
- TomMarius 9y ago
  Definitely not. Check out the whitepaper.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - mitchdoogle 9y ago
    White paper doesn't really matter in this regard. Bitcoin has been praised for years as a potential replacement for fiat currency, and the people doing the praising would use speed and low cost transactions as the hallmark of Bitcoin. The white paper is nice for getting an idea of how Bitcoin works.
    - TomMarius 9y ago
      You know that the people doing the praising are not affiliated with Bitcoin itself, right?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
ep103 9y ago
I agree, this is good for bitcoin!
CreepGin 9y ago
> never have been the main benefits of Bitcoin Then why the $#@! did they include "fast" and "low fee" as 2 of the 3 main points on their website.
- TomMarius 9y ago
  Don't know. Probably because they wanted to have something catchy there. It changes nothing about my point. Don't forget that Bitcoin.org doesn't represent the Bitcoin "society". It's operated by a very small group of very opinionated people that aren't doing what the community tells them, but whatever they wish (I don't mean to say that they go against the community - but they don't ask about everything, like this). If this group wants to do a change in the Bitcoin itself, it first needs an approval of the community.
highace 9y ago
Apart from the first 8 and a half years when speculators were predicting it would replace fiat for everyday transactions, you mean?
- TomMarius 9y ago
  Their prediction wasn't based on speed and low cost.
  - dboreham 9y ago
    Every single piece I read or heard on Bitcoin talked (only) about how Visa et al skim off excessive fees and Bitcoin would be so much cheaper. I don't remember hearing anything about speed, probably because at the time nobody realized Bitcoin wouldn't be transaction latency-competitive with traditional payment solutions.
    - TomMarius 9y ago
      See and everything I saw was about decentralization and other blockchain/cryptography-related things. I of course saw some people talk about Bitcoin as "cheaper than bankwire", but I definitely wouldn't say that was the main driving point of all Bitcoin adopters; not even a significant minority.
  - spookthesunset 9y ago
    Um, bitcoin was for years touted as "free and instant".
ashelmire 9y ago
This was absolutely proselytized as a core tenet of cryptocurrency, starting with bitcoin. Obviously, it has not remained true.
- statoshi 9y ago
  Some people proselytized it, sure. And they're generally the folks who are upset with the current situation and have switched to various altcoins that will suffer from the same scalability issues if they ever become particularly popular.
elif 9y ago
I believe your fundamentalist accounting of history has error.
Retroity 9y ago
The low-fee, fast transactions were absolutely the main benefits of bitcoin, especially in comparison to Visa or PayPal.
- TomMarius 9y ago
  Oh really? Can I have a quote from the whitepaper then, please? It says nothing like that.
  - Retric 9y ago
    Clearly you never actually read it start here: "The cost of mediation increases transaction costs, limiting the minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions" Clearly lowering transaction cost is one of the basic ideas behind Bitcoin that has now failed.
    - TomMarius 9y ago
      Nope, it doesn't mean that. There is one point you seem to miss: relative to Bitcoin, the transaction fee is nonexistent. Yeah, it's high when converted to dollars, but still, the promise is fulfilled.
      - Retric 9y ago
        limiting the minimum practical transaction size If the minimum transaction fee is X then the minimum reasonable transaction is ~10-20x. Based on current fees you can't do 0.0001 BtC transactions, thus it fails one of the primary goals and the entire value from irreversible transactions. Really this get's to the hart of irreversible transactions. Without artificial limits like the current 1MB block size transactions take meaningless amounts of computation and bandwidth and so they should basically be free. It's really oversight which is why Visa can get away with 30cents or more for what take a computers well under 1/1,000th's of a cent to maintain.
gooseus 9y ago
So looking at the updated site, I see: 1) Peer-to-Peer transactions Thats's nice, but so do Square Cash, Venmo, Paypal, etc... and they currently do it cheaper. 2) Borderless payments How do we define borders? They're just arbitrary demarcation lines regulated by governments, so wouldn't the developing regulations in South Korea and China be creating borders for bitcoin? 3) Fraud Protection Maybe someone can explain this to me. If any weird activity happens on my bank account, my bank contacts me and shuts down my card until I verify transactions. If I make a purchase with my CC and the seller is fraudulent, I can charge-back and have the CC deal with the seller. How does Bitcoin even come close to that level of fraud protection? I assume multi-sig is their way of defining "fraud protection"? Is it the decentralization? Because isn't the bulk of the mining being done by large pools that can then be regulated and controlled by the governments of the countries in which they operate? I just checked the mining breakdown[0] and the two top mining pools (BTC.COM and AntPool) are owned by Bitmain[1], which is a Chinese company, and the next two (BTC.TOP and ViaBTC) also look they're controlled by Chinese companies. I'm not anti-chinese, but lets not pretend that companies operating in China aren't in some way beholden to their highly centralized and non-democratic government. So what are, and have always been, the main benefits of bitcoin again? [0] https://blockchain.info/pools https://blockchain.info/pools [1] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitmain https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitmain
- Cthulhu_ 9y ago
  > Thats's nice, but so do Square Cash, Venmo, Paypal, etc... and they currently do it cheaper. With the difference that your wallet and means of transferring funds is centralized; you can't transfer money from your Paypal wallet without using Paypal's services. With crypto all you need is a connection to the network and your private key. > How do we define borders? They're just arbitrary demarcation lines regulated by governments, so wouldn't the developing regulations in South Korea and China be creating borders for bitcoin? They are, plenty of countries where crypto tech is not officially allowed. Or well, they can block the exchanges; in theory, using a VPN service people could still get on the network. But that too can be blocked. So you have a point there, while transferring coins is a global thing, there will be countries without an open internet where it won't be possible. Re: fraud protection, that's a tough one indeed. I think that implies that you can't get hit by a malicious bank? I'd argue it's more insecure than regular currencies, and like you said, official banks and currencies have a guarantee system, that is, if e.g. a bank gets hacked, or even when, due to your own fault, you get scammed, banks and credit card companies will reimburse you, often backed by national / global banks and systems.

JonnyNova 9y ago

They were absolutely the main features of Bitcoin when it first came around.

TomMarius 9y ago
Definitely not. Check out the whitepaper.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- mitchdoogle 9y ago
  White paper doesn't really matter in this regard. Bitcoin has been praised for years as a potential replacement for fiat currency, and the people doing the praising would use speed and low cost transactions as the hallmark of Bitcoin. The white paper is nice for getting an idea of how Bitcoin works.
  - TomMarius 9y ago
    You know that the people doing the praising are not affiliated with Bitcoin itself, right?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

ep103 9y ago

I agree, this is good for bitcoin!

CreepGin 9y ago

> never have been the main benefits of Bitcoin Then why the $#@! did they include "fast" and "low fee" as 2 of the 3 main points on their website.

TomMarius 9y ago
Don't know. Probably because they wanted to have something catchy there. It changes nothing about my point. Don't forget that Bitcoin.org doesn't represent the Bitcoin "society". It's operated by a very small group of very opinionated people that aren't doing what the community tells them, but whatever they wish (I don't mean to say that they go against the community - but they don't ask about everything, like this). If this group wants to do a change in the Bitcoin itself, it first needs an approval of the community.

highace 9y ago

Apart from the first 8 and a half years when speculators were predicting it would replace fiat for everyday transactions, you mean?

TomMarius 9y ago
Their prediction wasn't based on speed and low cost.
- dboreham 9y ago
  Every single piece I read or heard on Bitcoin talked (only) about how Visa et al skim off excessive fees and Bitcoin would be so much cheaper. I don't remember hearing anything about speed, probably because at the time nobody realized Bitcoin wouldn't be transaction latency-competitive with traditional payment solutions.
  - TomMarius 9y ago
    See and everything I saw was about decentralization and other blockchain/cryptography-related things. I of course saw some people talk about Bitcoin as "cheaper than bankwire", but I definitely wouldn't say that was the main driving point of all Bitcoin adopters; not even a significant minority.
- spookthesunset 9y ago
  Um, bitcoin was for years touted as "free and instant".

ashelmire 9y ago

This was absolutely proselytized as a core tenet of cryptocurrency, starting with bitcoin. Obviously, it has not remained true.

statoshi 9y ago
Some people proselytized it, sure. And they're generally the folks who are upset with the current situation and have switched to various altcoins that will suffer from the same scalability issues if they ever become particularly popular.

elif 9y ago

I believe your fundamentalist accounting of history has error.

Retroity 9y ago

The low-fee, fast transactions were absolutely the main benefits of bitcoin, especially in comparison to Visa or PayPal.

TomMarius 9y ago
Oh really? Can I have a quote from the whitepaper then, please? It says nothing like that.
- Retric 9y ago
  Clearly you never actually read it start here: "The cost of mediation increases transaction costs, limiting the minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions" Clearly lowering transaction cost is one of the basic ideas behind Bitcoin that has now failed.
  - TomMarius 9y ago
    Nope, it doesn't mean that. There is one point you seem to miss: relative to Bitcoin, the transaction fee is nonexistent. Yeah, it's high when converted to dollars, but still, the promise is fulfilled.
    - Retric 9y ago
      limiting the minimum practical transaction size If the minimum transaction fee is X then the minimum reasonable transaction is ~10-20x. Based on current fees you can't do 0.0001 BtC transactions, thus it fails one of the primary goals and the entire value from irreversible transactions. Really this get's to the hart of irreversible transactions. Without artificial limits like the current 1MB block size transactions take meaningless amounts of computation and bandwidth and so they should basically be free. It's really oversight which is why Visa can get away with 30cents or more for what take a computers well under 1/1,000th's of a cent to maintain.

gooseus 9y ago

So looking at the updated site, I see: 1) Peer-to-Peer transactions Thats's nice, but so do Square Cash, Venmo, Paypal, etc... and they currently do it cheaper. 2) Borderless payments How do we define borders? They're just arbitrary demarcation lines regulated by governments, so wouldn't the developing regulations in South Korea and China be creating borders for bitcoin? 3) Fraud Protection Maybe someone can explain this to me. If any weird activity happens on my bank account, my bank contacts me and shuts down my card until I verify transactions. If I make a purchase with my CC and the seller is fraudulent, I can charge-back and have the CC deal with the seller. How does Bitcoin even come close to that level of fraud protection? I assume multi-sig is their way of defining "fraud protection"? Is it the decentralization? Because isn't the bulk of the mining being done by large pools that can then be regulated and controlled by the governments of the countries in which they operate? I just checked the mining breakdown[0] and the two top mining pools (BTC.COM and AntPool) are owned by Bitmain[1], which is a Chinese company, and the next two (BTC.TOP and ViaBTC) also look they're controlled by Chinese companies. I'm not anti-chinese, but lets not pretend that companies operating in China aren't in some way beholden to their highly centralized and non-democratic government. So what are, and have always been, the main benefits of bitcoin again? [0] https://blockchain.info/pools https://blockchain.info/pools [1] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitmain https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitmain

Cthulhu_ 9y ago
> Thats's nice, but so do Square Cash, Venmo, Paypal, etc... and they currently do it cheaper. With the difference that your wallet and means of transferring funds is centralized; you can't transfer money from your Paypal wallet without using Paypal's services. With crypto all you need is a connection to the network and your private key. > How do we define borders? They're just arbitrary demarcation lines regulated by governments, so wouldn't the developing regulations in South Korea and China be creating borders for bitcoin? They are, plenty of countries where crypto tech is not officially allowed. Or well, they can block the exchanges; in theory, using a VPN service people could still get on the network. But that too can be blocked. So you have a point there, while transferring coins is a global thing, there will be countries without an open internet where it won't be possible. Re: fraud protection, that's a tough one indeed. I think that implies that you can't get hit by a malicious bank? I'd argue it's more insecure than regular currencies, and like you said, official banks and currencies have a guarantee system, that is, if e.g. a bank gets hacked, or even when, due to your own fault, you get scammed, banks and credit card companies will reimburse you, often backed by national / global banks and systems.