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> They're...interested...in security, and... [c]rypto can provide them with precisely that. 20% of all bitcoins have been irretrievably lost [0] and 7% have be

> They're...interested...in security, and... [c]rypto can provide them with precisely that. 20% of all bitcoins have been irretrievably lost [0] and 7% have been stolen [1]. If I was the global rich, I'd rather hide gold bars in my mattress rather than put it in Bitcoin if my goal was just security. [0] http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/ http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/ [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/how-many-bitcoins-have-been-stolen-2014-3?IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/how-many-bitcoins-have-been-s...

ThomPete 9y ago
Due to haphazard security and sheer being unlucky (i lost 300bitcoin from very very early on because they were on an external hardisk that I threw out) I am not the only one. Peoples money gets stolen all the time.
JonnyNova 9y ago
Also, Bitcoin is 15x more expensive than gold to store securely: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-15-times-more-expensive-130000674.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-15-times-more-expensi... Edit: for large institutional investors in a trust fund
- bfuller 9y ago
  >Also, Bitcoin is 15x more expensive than gold to store securely: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-15-times-more-expensi.. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-15-times-more-expensi.... This is only the case for this particular trust fund. You can secure your coins for free on your own. edit: downvoted for stating a fact? really?
  - JonnyNova 9y ago
    Didn't mean to leave that out. Added it in
bfuller 9y ago
I disagree with this point. While the facts about the amount of bitcoin being lost are true, if someone is properly motivated to learn how to do things correctly, and large amounts of money can definitely be motivating, you can be very confident in your security. So many coins have been lost because people were careless or uninformed, not because the system is fundamentally broken. Edit: You're free to downvote, but if you can't make a reasonable argument against me it just shows the emotional response you are leaning on. I would be happy to post a wallet address with $10,000 in bitcoin on there, if I am wrong about what I said, surely you'd be able to take the money from me?
- boffinism 9y ago
  Just because I can't steal from you starting from nothing but your wallet address doesn't mean that your system is secure. It just means that if there is an effective attack vector, it doesn't work by working out the private key from the public address. I agree with you that downvoting without offering counter-arguments is a sign of emotional rather than intellectual responses... but so is using straw man arguments like the one you put up.
  - bfuller 9y ago
    I disagree. No one has ever lost bitcoins from keeping them in cold storage with multi sig keys distributed in safety deposit boxes. Literally no one. Its secure.
282883392 9y ago
You misrepresent the intent of bitcoin along with it's intended use. Bitcoin was designed to be lost - to be eternally deflationary and for coins to fall out of circulation. Also you have to consider that the majority of coins were lost when bitcoin was worth considerably less than it is worth today. Proper techniques to store bitcoin (local keys on a secure machine or a hardware wallet) make bitcoin mathematically impossible to steal. "Stolen" bitcoin is synonymous with "insecure" bitcoin. Properly securing bitcoin would be significantly cheaper than storing gold bars in a mattress.
- boffinism 9y ago
  Can one mathematically prove invulnerability to a $5 wrench attack? Edit: Just in case it's not clear, my point is not that specifically bitcoin is more vulnerable to violence/coercion than other forms of value storage (although I'm pretty sure it is, as there are fewer safeguards/redress mechanisms). My point is that the regardless of the security of the mathematical element, cryptocurrency also has the real-world to contend with, which contains bugs, hardware failure, extortion, phishing, memory loss, theft, etc.
solean 9y ago
So much bitcoin was lost/stolen in the past because it simply wasn't worth very much. It's harder to forget you have 10btc on a laptop when it's worth $100,000 than when it's worth $10.

ThomPete 9y ago

Due to haphazard security and sheer being unlucky (i lost 300bitcoin from very very early on because they were on an external hardisk that I threw out) I am not the only one. Peoples money gets stolen all the time.

JonnyNova 9y ago

Also, Bitcoin is 15x more expensive than gold to store securely: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-15-times-more-expensive-130000674.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-15-times-more-expensi... Edit: for large institutional investors in a trust fund

bfuller 9y ago
>Also, Bitcoin is 15x more expensive than gold to store securely: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-15-times-more-expensi.. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-15-times-more-expensi.... This is only the case for this particular trust fund. You can secure your coins for free on your own. edit: downvoted for stating a fact? really?
- JonnyNova 9y ago
  Didn't mean to leave that out. Added it in

bfuller 9y ago

I disagree with this point. While the facts about the amount of bitcoin being lost are true, if someone is properly motivated to learn how to do things correctly, and large amounts of money can definitely be motivating, you can be very confident in your security. So many coins have been lost because people were careless or uninformed, not because the system is fundamentally broken. Edit: You're free to downvote, but if you can't make a reasonable argument against me it just shows the emotional response you are leaning on. I would be happy to post a wallet address with $10,000 in bitcoin on there, if I am wrong about what I said, surely you'd be able to take the money from me?

boffinism 9y ago
Just because I can't steal from you starting from nothing but your wallet address doesn't mean that your system is secure. It just means that if there is an effective attack vector, it doesn't work by working out the private key from the public address. I agree with you that downvoting without offering counter-arguments is a sign of emotional rather than intellectual responses... but so is using straw man arguments like the one you put up.
- bfuller 9y ago
  I disagree. No one has ever lost bitcoins from keeping them in cold storage with multi sig keys distributed in safety deposit boxes. Literally no one. Its secure.

282883392 9y ago

You misrepresent the intent of bitcoin along with it's intended use. Bitcoin was designed to be lost - to be eternally deflationary and for coins to fall out of circulation. Also you have to consider that the majority of coins were lost when bitcoin was worth considerably less than it is worth today. Proper techniques to store bitcoin (local keys on a secure machine or a hardware wallet) make bitcoin mathematically impossible to steal. "Stolen" bitcoin is synonymous with "insecure" bitcoin. Properly securing bitcoin would be significantly cheaper than storing gold bars in a mattress.

boffinism 9y ago
Can one mathematically prove invulnerability to a $5 wrench attack? Edit: Just in case it's not clear, my point is not that specifically bitcoin is more vulnerable to violence/coercion than other forms of value storage (although I'm pretty sure it is, as there are fewer safeguards/redress mechanisms). My point is that the regardless of the security of the mathematical element, cryptocurrency also has the real-world to contend with, which contains bugs, hardware failure, extortion, phishing, memory loss, theft, etc.

solean 9y ago

So much bitcoin was lost/stolen in the past because it simply wasn't worth very much. It's harder to forget you have 10btc on a laptop when it's worth $100,000 than when it's worth $10.