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I think you're misreading my comment. The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't. If a specific individual is unable to communicate

I think you're misreading my comment. The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't. If a specific individual is unable to communicate without that, that's a totally different matter - being able to accommodate a wide church of people is a crucial diversity matter. Would it have been clearer if I had said "All someone in a project leadership position needs to say ..." ? I'm arguing against that the notion that this approach is necessary, not that it shouldn't be accommodated.

MaxBarraclough 9y ago
I'm inclined to disagree on all points. As sundvor already pointed out, Linus's cursing works. He uses it for emphasis, to bring attention to bear where it's needed. Being polite would likely be less effective. > If a specific individual is unable to communicate without that, that's a totally different matter - being able to accommodate a wide church of people is a crucial diversity matter. So shouldn't you be OK with Linus cursing? I disagree here too, though. Cursing is a choice, not a disability. If, say, a firm fires someone for failing to maintain a civil tongue, I'd hardly call that a diversity problem. It could be quite reasonable, depending on the firm. > I'm arguing against that the notion that this approach is necessary, not that it shouldn't be accommodated Define 'necessary'. Would the kernel implode if Linus were more polite? Of course not, but I still agree with sundvor that Linus uses it as an effective tool. He's not just an angry child with poor impulse control.
- piyush_soni 9y ago
  Linus' cursing works because he's Linus, not because he is cursing. There is really no evidence that if he uses strong but less abusive language the work won't get done.
  - icelancer 9y ago
    >> There is really no evidence that if he uses strong but less abusive language the work won't get done. That is because there is no other copy of Linus. There's plenty of other lesser software developers who can't do a tenth of what Linus did in his life.
    - piyush_soni 9y ago
      And that somehow entitles him to insult everyone he wants to, so frequently?
      - icelancer 9y ago
        > so frequently I am guessing you don't read the Linux mailing list if you think Linus goes off like this regularly. Maybe you're confusing it with the OpenBSD list and Theo. Linus' comments like this make the news because of the content. If he did this all the time - frequently, as you posit - it wouldn't make the news all that often, as it would be normal. Linus isn't a guy who flies off the handle with regularity.
    - chipotle_coyote 9y ago
      There's also no other copy of Donald Knuth, or Dennis Ritchie, or Alan Kay, or any other computer luminary. There's also no other copy of any "other lesser software developer" or you or me or the baristas at your closest Starbucks. What you've said in response is "the sky is blue": indisputably true and essentially irrelevant. I'd argue that in fact, there is circumstantial evidence that brilliant computer programmers can get work done without occasionally making those they interact with miserable: that evidence is the fact that most brilliant computer programmers get work done without occasionally making those they interact with miserable. There is nothing that requires Linus to make strong points by jumping and down and screaming. That's an affection he deliberately chooses. There's a strong notion through this whole comment thread of "if he didn't do that, nobody would listen to him," which is absolute nonsense. People don't listen to him because of these kinds of outbursts, they listen to him because he's Linus Torvalds. They listen to him in spite of these kinds of outbursts.
      - dTal 9y ago
        >People don't listen to him because of these kinds of outbursts Check the title of the thread you're in, and how many comments it has. People absolutely listen to him when he has these outbursts. It's usually a solid indicator there's something worth getting outraged about.
poooogles 9y ago
>The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't. I think we do when communicating with some people. It's all a matter of context. To 99.99% of people being brash is just going to be a hindrance. For some however it's required for them to see what their actions are not up to standard. That's my 2c's anyway. I've never had a situation (within the tech industry) where I've needed to be so on the nose as Linus, but a couple of times I've got close after repeatedly telling one person their actions were VERY wrong and risked doing the whole entire team damage.
odonnellryan 9y ago
How much attention would this have gotten it if was a polite note somewhere? Maybe less. Probably not more ....
rhizome 9y ago
The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't. Anything that speaks for all of us is bullshit, so both of you are offtopic. Anybody who pretends to speak for what "we need" is a charlatan. You don't need to address what one person says their preference for universal organization is. Don't feed the trolls.

MaxBarraclough 9y ago

I'm inclined to disagree on all points. As sundvor already pointed out, Linus's cursing works. He uses it for emphasis, to bring attention to bear where it's needed. Being polite would likely be less effective. > If a specific individual is unable to communicate without that, that's a totally different matter - being able to accommodate a wide church of people is a crucial diversity matter. So shouldn't you be OK with Linus cursing? I disagree here too, though. Cursing is a choice, not a disability. If, say, a firm fires someone for failing to maintain a civil tongue, I'd hardly call that a diversity problem. It could be quite reasonable, depending on the firm. > I'm arguing against that the notion that this approach is necessary, not that it shouldn't be accommodated Define 'necessary'. Would the kernel implode if Linus were more polite? Of course not, but I still agree with sundvor that Linus uses it as an effective tool. He's not just an angry child with poor impulse control.

piyush_soni 9y ago
Linus' cursing works because he's Linus, not because he is cursing. There is really no evidence that if he uses strong but less abusive language the work won't get done.
- icelancer 9y ago
  >> There is really no evidence that if he uses strong but less abusive language the work won't get done. That is because there is no other copy of Linus. There's plenty of other lesser software developers who can't do a tenth of what Linus did in his life.
  - piyush_soni 9y ago
    And that somehow entitles him to insult everyone he wants to, so frequently?
    - icelancer 9y ago
      > so frequently I am guessing you don't read the Linux mailing list if you think Linus goes off like this regularly. Maybe you're confusing it with the OpenBSD list and Theo. Linus' comments like this make the news because of the content. If he did this all the time - frequently, as you posit - it wouldn't make the news all that often, as it would be normal. Linus isn't a guy who flies off the handle with regularity.
  - chipotle_coyote 9y ago
    There's also no other copy of Donald Knuth, or Dennis Ritchie, or Alan Kay, or any other computer luminary. There's also no other copy of any "other lesser software developer" or you or me or the baristas at your closest Starbucks. What you've said in response is "the sky is blue": indisputably true and essentially irrelevant. I'd argue that in fact, there is circumstantial evidence that brilliant computer programmers can get work done without occasionally making those they interact with miserable: that evidence is the fact that most brilliant computer programmers get work done without occasionally making those they interact with miserable. There is nothing that requires Linus to make strong points by jumping and down and screaming. That's an affection he deliberately chooses. There's a strong notion through this whole comment thread of "if he didn't do that, nobody would listen to him," which is absolute nonsense. People don't listen to him because of these kinds of outbursts, they listen to him because he's Linus Torvalds. They listen to him in spite of these kinds of outbursts.
    - dTal 9y ago
      >People don't listen to him because of these kinds of outbursts Check the title of the thread you're in, and how many comments it has. People absolutely listen to him when he has these outbursts. It's usually a solid indicator there's something worth getting outraged about.

poooogles 9y ago

>The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't. I think we do when communicating with some people. It's all a matter of context. To 99.99% of people being brash is just going to be a hindrance. For some however it's required for them to see what their actions are not up to standard. That's my 2c's anyway. I've never had a situation (within the tech industry) where I've needed to be so on the nose as Linus, but a couple of times I've got close after repeatedly telling one person their actions were VERY wrong and risked doing the whole entire team damage.

odonnellryan 9y ago

How much attention would this have gotten it if was a polite note somewhere? Maybe less. Probably not more ....

rhizome 9y ago

The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't. Anything that speaks for all of us is bullshit, so both of you are offtopic. Anybody who pretends to speak for what "we need" is a charlatan. You don't need to address what one person says their preference for universal organization is. Don't feed the trolls.