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>> Being able to call out bullshit doesn't mean having to curse it out. Here we go. >> All Linus needs to do is say something like And all you need to do is

>> Being able to call out bullshit doesn't mean having to curse it out. Here we go. >> All Linus needs to do is say something like And all you need to do is be that nice and be as brilliant as Linus is. Oh, it's harder to be that smart than it is to be that nice? Maybe consider that for people as highly gifted as Linus, it actually isn't. What you take for granted as normal behavior isn't always normal to others, especially those at the outliers of skill and intelligence.

mrmondo 9y ago
Thank you for saying what I couldn’t put into words.
ealexhudson 9y ago
I think you're misreading my comment. The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't. If a specific individual is unable to communicate without that, that's a totally different matter - being able to accommodate a wide church of people is a crucial diversity matter. Would it have been clearer if I had said "All someone in a project leadership position needs to say ..." ? I'm arguing against that the notion that this approach is necessary, not that it shouldn't be accommodated.
- MaxBarraclough 9y ago
  I'm inclined to disagree on all points. As sundvor already pointed out, Linus's cursing works. He uses it for emphasis, to bring attention to bear where it's needed. Being polite would likely be less effective. > If a specific individual is unable to communicate without that, that's a totally different matter - being able to accommodate a wide church of people is a crucial diversity matter. So shouldn't you be OK with Linus cursing? I disagree here too, though. Cursing is a choice, not a disability. If, say, a firm fires someone for failing to maintain a civil tongue, I'd hardly call that a diversity problem. It could be quite reasonable, depending on the firm. > I'm arguing against that the notion that this approach is necessary, not that it shouldn't be accommodated Define 'necessary'. Would the kernel implode if Linus were more polite? Of course not, but I still agree with sundvor that Linus uses it as an effective tool. He's not just an angry child with poor impulse control.
  - piyush_soni 9y ago
    Linus' cursing works because he's Linus, not because he is cursing. There is really no evidence that if he uses strong but less abusive language the work won't get done.
    - icelancer 9y ago
      >> There is really no evidence that if he uses strong but less abusive language the work won't get done. That is because there is no other copy of Linus. There's plenty of other lesser software developers who can't do a tenth of what Linus did in his life.
      - piyush_soni 9y ago
        And that somehow entitles him to insult everyone he wants to, so frequently?
        icelancer 9y ago
        > so frequently I am guessing you don't read the Linux mailing list if you think Linus goes off like this regularly. Maybe you're confusing it with the OpenBSD list and Theo. Linus' comments like this make the news because of the content. If he did this all the time - frequently, as you posit - it wouldn't make the news all that often, as it would be normal. Linus isn't a guy who flies off the handle with regularity.
      - chipotle_coyote 9y ago
        There's also no other copy of Donald Knuth, or Dennis Ritchie, or Alan Kay, or any other computer luminary. There's also no other copy of any "other lesser software developer" or you or me or the baristas at your closest Starbucks. What you've said in response is "the sky is blue": indisputably true and essentially irrelevant. I'd argue that in fact, there is circumstantial evidence that brilliant computer programmers can get work done without occasionally making those they interact with miserable: that evidence is the fact that most brilliant computer programmers get work done without occasionally making those they interact with miserable. There is nothing that requires Linus to make strong points by jumping and down and screaming. That's an affection he deliberately chooses. There's a strong notion through this whole comment thread of "if he didn't do that, nobody would listen to him," which is absolute nonsense. People don't listen to him because of these kinds of outbursts, they listen to him because he's Linus Torvalds. They listen to him in spite of these kinds of outbursts.
- poooogles 9y ago
  >The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't. I think we do when communicating with some people. It's all a matter of context. To 99.99% of people being brash is just going to be a hindrance. For some however it's required for them to see what their actions are not up to standard. That's my 2c's anyway. I've never had a situation (within the tech industry) where I've needed to be so on the nose as Linus, but a couple of times I've got close after repeatedly telling one person their actions were VERY wrong and risked doing the whole entire team damage.
- odonnellryan 9y ago
  How much attention would this have gotten it if was a polite note somewhere? Maybe less. Probably not more ....
- rhizome 9y ago
  The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't. Anything that speaks for all of us is bullshit, so both of you are offtopic. Anybody who pretends to speak for what "we need" is a charlatan. You don't need to address what one person says their preference for universal organization is. Don't feed the trolls.
piyush_soni 9y ago
BULLSHIT (I hear you like it). It's about basic etiquette, and treating humans as humans. No amount of gifted skill is a threshold for crossing that behavior barrier.
- icelancer 9y ago
  >>No amount of gifted skill is a threshold for crossing that behavior barrier. Sure there is. You would rather have Linus in your life who yells at people than not. Linus being an asshole is something you have to deal with to get access to his intelligence. I suggest you make peace with this understanding, as it applies to far more people than Linus.
  - piyush_soni 9y ago
    Having a Linus who doesn't yell at people will be any day better than having one who abuses others at will. He needs to take anger management classes. We could seriously do with a little less high-headedness in the world.
    - icelancer 9y ago
      >> Having a Linus who doesn't yell at people And having my cake and eating it too in every scenario would be great. That's not how things work all the time. It's up to you to deal with it, not Linus to change. He's the scarce resource. He has the leverage. You're just someone on the Internet mad.
      - piyush_soni 9y ago
        Again, your understanding is that intelligent people have the right to abuse. That's just akin to supporting oppression of weaker by stronger. That might be how things are for a lot of people, but not how they should be. Also, mad internet people have historically changed a lot of things, so I'm justified in showing my disapproval even if it won't change Linus. Changing at least one upcoming Linus in life would be a good enough goal.
odonnellryan 9y ago
Also, what's wrong with cursing? Are our sensibilities really that delicate?
rhizome 9y ago
Manners were invented to prevent disease and stuff, but they're also used by the aristocracy to differentiate themselves from the rabble. Complaining about word choice and tone is an example of the latter. "Linus doesn't talk the way good people do."
- katastic 9y ago
  I wonder how self-righteous those commenters would be if they were talking about a black person not "talking white enough". All a sudden, it becomes pretty clear what the conversation is really about. Trying to police people for being different.

mrmondo 9y ago

Thank you for saying what I couldn’t put into words.

ealexhudson 9y ago

I think you're misreading my comment. The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't. If a specific individual is unable to communicate without that, that's a totally different matter - being able to accommodate a wide church of people is a crucial diversity matter. Would it have been clearer if I had said "All someone in a project leadership position needs to say ..." ? I'm arguing against that the notion that this approach is necessary, not that it shouldn't be accommodated.

MaxBarraclough 9y ago
I'm inclined to disagree on all points. As sundvor already pointed out, Linus's cursing works. He uses it for emphasis, to bring attention to bear where it's needed. Being polite would likely be less effective. > If a specific individual is unable to communicate without that, that's a totally different matter - being able to accommodate a wide church of people is a crucial diversity matter. So shouldn't you be OK with Linus cursing? I disagree here too, though. Cursing is a choice, not a disability. If, say, a firm fires someone for failing to maintain a civil tongue, I'd hardly call that a diversity problem. It could be quite reasonable, depending on the firm. > I'm arguing against that the notion that this approach is necessary, not that it shouldn't be accommodated Define 'necessary'. Would the kernel implode if Linus were more polite? Of course not, but I still agree with sundvor that Linus uses it as an effective tool. He's not just an angry child with poor impulse control.
- piyush_soni 9y ago
  Linus' cursing works because he's Linus, not because he is cursing. There is really no evidence that if he uses strong but less abusive language the work won't get done.
  - icelancer 9y ago
    >> There is really no evidence that if he uses strong but less abusive language the work won't get done. That is because there is no other copy of Linus. There's plenty of other lesser software developers who can't do a tenth of what Linus did in his life.
    - piyush_soni 9y ago
      And that somehow entitles him to insult everyone he wants to, so frequently?
      - icelancer 9y ago
        > so frequently I am guessing you don't read the Linux mailing list if you think Linus goes off like this regularly. Maybe you're confusing it with the OpenBSD list and Theo. Linus' comments like this make the news because of the content. If he did this all the time - frequently, as you posit - it wouldn't make the news all that often, as it would be normal. Linus isn't a guy who flies off the handle with regularity.
    - chipotle_coyote 9y ago
      There's also no other copy of Donald Knuth, or Dennis Ritchie, or Alan Kay, or any other computer luminary. There's also no other copy of any "other lesser software developer" or you or me or the baristas at your closest Starbucks. What you've said in response is "the sky is blue": indisputably true and essentially irrelevant. I'd argue that in fact, there is circumstantial evidence that brilliant computer programmers can get work done without occasionally making those they interact with miserable: that evidence is the fact that most brilliant computer programmers get work done without occasionally making those they interact with miserable. There is nothing that requires Linus to make strong points by jumping and down and screaming. That's an affection he deliberately chooses. There's a strong notion through this whole comment thread of "if he didn't do that, nobody would listen to him," which is absolute nonsense. People don't listen to him because of these kinds of outbursts, they listen to him because he's Linus Torvalds. They listen to him in spite of these kinds of outbursts.
poooogles 9y ago
>The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't. I think we do when communicating with some people. It's all a matter of context. To 99.99% of people being brash is just going to be a hindrance. For some however it's required for them to see what their actions are not up to standard. That's my 2c's anyway. I've never had a situation (within the tech industry) where I've needed to be so on the nose as Linus, but a couple of times I've got close after repeatedly telling one person their actions were VERY wrong and risked doing the whole entire team damage.
odonnellryan 9y ago
How much attention would this have gotten it if was a polite note somewhere? Maybe less. Probably not more ....
rhizome 9y ago
The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't. Anything that speaks for all of us is bullshit, so both of you are offtopic. Anybody who pretends to speak for what "we need" is a charlatan. You don't need to address what one person says their preference for universal organization is. Don't feed the trolls.

piyush_soni 9y ago

BULLSHIT (I hear you like it). It's about basic etiquette, and treating humans as humans. No amount of gifted skill is a threshold for crossing that behavior barrier.

icelancer 9y ago
>>No amount of gifted skill is a threshold for crossing that behavior barrier. Sure there is. You would rather have Linus in your life who yells at people than not. Linus being an asshole is something you have to deal with to get access to his intelligence. I suggest you make peace with this understanding, as it applies to far more people than Linus.
- piyush_soni 9y ago
  Having a Linus who doesn't yell at people will be any day better than having one who abuses others at will. He needs to take anger management classes. We could seriously do with a little less high-headedness in the world.
  - icelancer 9y ago
    >> Having a Linus who doesn't yell at people And having my cake and eating it too in every scenario would be great. That's not how things work all the time. It's up to you to deal with it, not Linus to change. He's the scarce resource. He has the leverage. You're just someone on the Internet mad.
    - piyush_soni 9y ago
      Again, your understanding is that intelligent people have the right to abuse. That's just akin to supporting oppression of weaker by stronger. That might be how things are for a lot of people, but not how they should be. Also, mad internet people have historically changed a lot of things, so I'm justified in showing my disapproval even if it won't change Linus. Changing at least one upcoming Linus in life would be a good enough goal.

odonnellryan 9y ago

Also, what's wrong with cursing? Are our sensibilities really that delicate?

rhizome 9y ago

Manners were invented to prevent disease and stuff, but they're also used by the aristocracy to differentiate themselves from the rabble. Complaining about word choice and tone is an example of the latter. "Linus doesn't talk the way good people do."

katastic 9y ago
I wonder how self-righteous those commenters would be if they were talking about a black person not "talking white enough". All a sudden, it becomes pretty clear what the conversation is really about. Trying to police people for being different.