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Being able to call out bullshit doesn't mean having to curse it out. All Linus needs to do is say something like "I don't understand why this is here, and I'm n

Being able to call out bullshit doesn't mean having to curse it out. All Linus needs to do is say something like "I don't understand why this is here, and I'm not merging it until I do", rather than "They do literally insane things. They do things that do not make sense". The latter is not a technical argument, and it doesn't provide accuracy or clarity about next steps. "So somebody isn't telling the truth here. Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons" - maybe the patches are bad. Or maybe there is an undisclosed vulnerability (like https://skyfallattack.com/ https://skyfallattack.com/ ?) that needs this "garbage" to mitigate it, and no-one got Linus properly in the loop. If it's the latter, all this shouting and cursing about "They do things that do not make sense" has likely attracted the attention of people interested in such things...

bigato 9y ago
> "I don't understand why this is here, and I'm not merging it until I do" This is not clear enough and could be interpreted as incompetence on the part of the speaker
- ealexhudson 9y ago
  It turned out that Linus had confused "IBRS" and "IBPB". That seems to me that he didn't understand it. I'm not sure why saying "I don't understand this" would confer _incompetence_ rather than just not understanding. Understanding is easily gained with good communication. The original patch set clearly doesn't explain the point of the patches well, and everyone gets things wrong as well. There's no shame in saying "I don't understand this", it's not a final statement equivalent to "I will never be able to understand this".
- joesb 9y ago
  Which means you are insecure about being viewed as incompetent over furthering the discussion. If you don't understand it, say you don't understand it. Unless you are a narcistic person that think you can never fail and anything you don't understand is always garbage.
mrmondo 9y ago
If you’re worried about ‘cursing’ and you seriously think that it’s something important in the scope of this discussion around security and the grand scale of negligence afoot, I believe you may need to re-evaluate your values. In fact, the idea that you’re even bringing up such minor language at such a time really disappoints me.
- bonuswavepilot 9y ago
  Yeah, it's weird... I get why people would want to call Torvalds out on acting abusively, but focussing on the 'bad words' is odd. Would I be correct in assuming that the majority of commenters here are from the US? (Not trying to throw shade on you Americans, just that you do tend to get needlessly flustered about swearing)
sundvor 9y ago
Sometimes in a sea of noise it's good to have someone highly qualified shouting to make people sit up and really pay attention. Like now, because it is critically needed.
- ealexhudson 9y ago
  Really? It's a 10 patch series. Patches 4 & 5 have attracted high-quality low-curse technical discussion of <10 mails. Linus' initial response to patch 9 appears to be missing from the mailing list, so it's not even clear to me he intended it to be made public. Where is the sea of noise you think justifies this?
- hmmmmmmmmmmm 9y ago
  No not really. The fact is, Linux kernel developers are in an abusive relationship with Linus. If you look at a high quality Unix such as FreeBSD, there's none of this temper tantrum nonsense.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
icelancer 9y ago
>> Being able to call out bullshit doesn't mean having to curse it out. Here we go. >> All Linus needs to do is say something like And all you need to do is be that nice and be as brilliant as Linus is. Oh, it's harder to be that smart than it is to be that nice? Maybe consider that for people as highly gifted as Linus, it actually isn't. What you take for granted as normal behavior isn't always normal to others, especially those at the outliers of skill and intelligence.
- mrmondo 9y ago
  Thank you for saying what I couldn’t put into words.
- ealexhudson 9y ago
  I think you're misreading my comment. The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't. If a specific individual is unable to communicate without that, that's a totally different matter - being able to accommodate a wide church of people is a crucial diversity matter. Would it have been clearer if I had said "All someone in a project leadership position needs to say ..." ? I'm arguing against that the notion that this approach is necessary, not that it shouldn't be accommodated.
  - MaxBarraclough 9y ago
    I'm inclined to disagree on all points. As sundvor already pointed out, Linus's cursing works. He uses it for emphasis, to bring attention to bear where it's needed. Being polite would likely be less effective. > If a specific individual is unable to communicate without that, that's a totally different matter - being able to accommodate a wide church of people is a crucial diversity matter. So shouldn't you be OK with Linus cursing? I disagree here too, though. Cursing is a choice, not a disability. If, say, a firm fires someone for failing to maintain a civil tongue, I'd hardly call that a diversity problem. It could be quite reasonable, depending on the firm. > I'm arguing against that the notion that this approach is necessary, not that it shouldn't be accommodated Define 'necessary'. Would the kernel implode if Linus were more polite? Of course not, but I still agree with sundvor that Linus uses it as an effective tool. He's not just an angry child with poor impulse control.
Beltiras 9y ago
The content in that link is hair-raising to say the least.
cthalupa 9y ago
> Or maybe there is an undisclosed vulnerability (like https://skyfallattack.com/ https://skyfallattack.com/ ?) Let's not highlight this nonsense hoax. It isn't how embargoes work and is obviously people just trying to jump on the hype train.
yeukhon 9y ago
I do agree his language and tone can be very painful to read. Imagine getting called a moron in front of the whole world, when you could have private conversation first with a smaller group. When I read his reply, I could feel the pain. I imagined I would reply back to him and say "well fuck you too." When I finished reading the email, regardless of who is more right or more wrong, I can understand and feel his frustration. I would absolutely go mad if someone messes with something I care about, and then have the guts to do fact checks. But I still think there is room to offer an olive branch, honestly. But given how busy he is, and how many shitty patches they get, I can understand his frustration. That being said, it almost seems like no one other than him, can do a better job in keeping up with the quality if he has to be the one yelling all the time. When Linus is no longer involved (for any reasons), can Linux kernel project continues to have quality code? A couple years ago Linus shared his views on insult: respect should be earned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ017D_JOPY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ017D_JOPY Worth watching.
- shepardrtc 9y ago
  > Imagine getting called a moron in front of the whole world If he was right about what I did, I would make damn sure that I didn't do it again. I believe he's being obnoxious because the people submitting these patches are trying to quietly pull some bullshit. If you're trying to affect countless people and companies across the world with questionable actions, I don't care how bad you feel.
- dwmw2 9y ago
  Pfft. If I've been a moron in front of the whole world, you might as well call me one; that part doesn't make a lot of difference. And if I know I haven't, well it doesn't make a lot of difference if you call me one either. I'm not five years old any more, having to chant "sticks and stones may break my bones..." to convince myself it's true, choking back the tears. There was no "pain" on reading the reply. Only a minor frustration that there had clearly been a miscommunication about the different parts of the patch series, leading to his objections when he saw something he didn't expect. And certainly no temptation to say what you suggest. It was a technical rant. No people were harmed, and a personal reply like that would have been completely unnecessary. I was expecting him not to like IBRS. Hell, I don't like it either. But as I said later, it still wants posting in the light of day, and a conscious decision to drop it and accept the caveats, if that's what we're going to do.
dTal 9y ago
The function of the "shouting and cursing" is to draw attention. If Linus had used mild language, it wouldn't be on Hacker News and we wouldn't be talking about it. When Linus rants, it's always something worth ranting about; it's a powerful shaming tool to enforce good behaviour in a world where there's little other leverage. And in the unlikely event that your theory regarding undisclosed vulnerabilities is true, this will certainly make them think twice about leaving Linus out of the loop again, no?
xroche 9y ago
> Being able to call out bullshit doesn't mean having to curse it out Sometimes this is actually necessary to get heard, and have the issue taken seriously. It helps providing the feedback that something REALLY wrong just happened and needs to be addressed immediately. Imagine a sergeant talking to a trainee. What's the most efficient ? - "Dear soldier, I think the way you handle your weapon is going to get you killed in a few moment. You should probably change that appropriately. If I may provide you this advice, of corse." - "Stop this shit now! You're going to shoot yourself!"
- fermienrico 9y ago
  Of all replies defending Linus I've read, this one hits home run. Linus himself admits[1] that his outrageous insults are sort of "jokey" and a hyperbole. That's the surface. The underlying tone is to get attention without getting drowned by political correctness. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ017D_JOPY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ017D_JOPY

bigato 9y ago

> "I don't understand why this is here, and I'm not merging it until I do" This is not clear enough and could be interpreted as incompetence on the part of the speaker

ealexhudson 9y ago
It turned out that Linus had confused "IBRS" and "IBPB". That seems to me that he didn't understand it. I'm not sure why saying "I don't understand this" would confer _incompetence_ rather than just not understanding. Understanding is easily gained with good communication. The original patch set clearly doesn't explain the point of the patches well, and everyone gets things wrong as well. There's no shame in saying "I don't understand this", it's not a final statement equivalent to "I will never be able to understand this".
joesb 9y ago
Which means you are insecure about being viewed as incompetent over furthering the discussion. If you don't understand it, say you don't understand it. Unless you are a narcistic person that think you can never fail and anything you don't understand is always garbage.

mrmondo 9y ago

If you’re worried about ‘cursing’ and you seriously think that it’s something important in the scope of this discussion around security and the grand scale of negligence afoot, I believe you may need to re-evaluate your values. In fact, the idea that you’re even bringing up such minor language at such a time really disappoints me.

bonuswavepilot 9y ago
Yeah, it's weird... I get why people would want to call Torvalds out on acting abusively, but focussing on the 'bad words' is odd. Would I be correct in assuming that the majority of commenters here are from the US? (Not trying to throw shade on you Americans, just that you do tend to get needlessly flustered about swearing)

sundvor 9y ago

Sometimes in a sea of noise it's good to have someone highly qualified shouting to make people sit up and really pay attention. Like now, because it is critically needed.

ealexhudson 9y ago
Really? It's a 10 patch series. Patches 4 & 5 have attracted high-quality low-curse technical discussion of <10 mails. Linus' initial response to patch 9 appears to be missing from the mailing list, so it's not even clear to me he intended it to be made public. Where is the sea of noise you think justifies this?
hmmmmmmmmmmm 9y ago
No not really. The fact is, Linux kernel developers are in an abusive relationship with Linus. If you look at a high quality Unix such as FreeBSD, there's none of this temper tantrum nonsense.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

icelancer 9y ago

>> Being able to call out bullshit doesn't mean having to curse it out. Here we go. >> All Linus needs to do is say something like And all you need to do is be that nice and be as brilliant as Linus is. Oh, it's harder to be that smart than it is to be that nice? Maybe consider that for people as highly gifted as Linus, it actually isn't. What you take for granted as normal behavior isn't always normal to others, especially those at the outliers of skill and intelligence.

mrmondo 9y ago
Thank you for saying what I couldn’t put into words.
ealexhudson 9y ago
I think you're misreading my comment. The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't. If a specific individual is unable to communicate without that, that's a totally different matter - being able to accommodate a wide church of people is a crucial diversity matter. Would it have been clearer if I had said "All someone in a project leadership position needs to say ..." ? I'm arguing against that the notion that this approach is necessary, not that it shouldn't be accommodated.
- MaxBarraclough 9y ago
  I'm inclined to disagree on all points. As sundvor already pointed out, Linus's cursing works. He uses it for emphasis, to bring attention to bear where it's needed. Being polite would likely be less effective. > If a specific individual is unable to communicate without that, that's a totally different matter - being able to accommodate a wide church of people is a crucial diversity matter. So shouldn't you be OK with Linus cursing? I disagree here too, though. Cursing is a choice, not a disability. If, say, a firm fires someone for failing to maintain a civil tongue, I'd hardly call that a diversity problem. It could be quite reasonable, depending on the firm. > I'm arguing against that the notion that this approach is necessary, not that it shouldn't be accommodated Define 'necessary'. Would the kernel implode if Linus were more polite? Of course not, but I still agree with sundvor that Linus uses it as an effective tool. He's not just an angry child with poor impulse control.

Beltiras 9y ago

The content in that link is hair-raising to say the least.

cthalupa 9y ago

> Or maybe there is an undisclosed vulnerability (like https://skyfallattack.com/ https://skyfallattack.com/ ?) Let's not highlight this nonsense hoax. It isn't how embargoes work and is obviously people just trying to jump on the hype train.

yeukhon 9y ago

I do agree his language and tone can be very painful to read. Imagine getting called a moron in front of the whole world, when you could have private conversation first with a smaller group. When I read his reply, I could feel the pain. I imagined I would reply back to him and say "well fuck you too." When I finished reading the email, regardless of who is more right or more wrong, I can understand and feel his frustration. I would absolutely go mad if someone messes with something I care about, and then have the guts to do fact checks. But I still think there is room to offer an olive branch, honestly. But given how busy he is, and how many shitty patches they get, I can understand his frustration. That being said, it almost seems like no one other than him, can do a better job in keeping up with the quality if he has to be the one yelling all the time. When Linus is no longer involved (for any reasons), can Linux kernel project continues to have quality code? A couple years ago Linus shared his views on insult: respect should be earned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ017D_JOPY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ017D_JOPY Worth watching.

shepardrtc 9y ago
> Imagine getting called a moron in front of the whole world If he was right about what I did, I would make damn sure that I didn't do it again. I believe he's being obnoxious because the people submitting these patches are trying to quietly pull some bullshit. If you're trying to affect countless people and companies across the world with questionable actions, I don't care how bad you feel.
dwmw2 9y ago
Pfft. If I've been a moron in front of the whole world, you might as well call me one; that part doesn't make a lot of difference. And if I know I haven't, well it doesn't make a lot of difference if you call me one either. I'm not five years old any more, having to chant "sticks and stones may break my bones..." to convince myself it's true, choking back the tears. There was no "pain" on reading the reply. Only a minor frustration that there had clearly been a miscommunication about the different parts of the patch series, leading to his objections when he saw something he didn't expect. And certainly no temptation to say what you suggest. It was a technical rant. No people were harmed, and a personal reply like that would have been completely unnecessary. I was expecting him not to like IBRS. Hell, I don't like it either. But as I said later, it still wants posting in the light of day, and a conscious decision to drop it and accept the caveats, if that's what we're going to do.

dTal 9y ago

The function of the "shouting and cursing" is to draw attention. If Linus had used mild language, it wouldn't be on Hacker News and we wouldn't be talking about it. When Linus rants, it's always something worth ranting about; it's a powerful shaming tool to enforce good behaviour in a world where there's little other leverage. And in the unlikely event that your theory regarding undisclosed vulnerabilities is true, this will certainly make them think twice about leaving Linus out of the loop again, no?

xroche 9y ago

> Being able to call out bullshit doesn't mean having to curse it out Sometimes this is actually necessary to get heard, and have the issue taken seriously. It helps providing the feedback that something REALLY wrong just happened and needs to be addressed immediately. Imagine a sergeant talking to a trainee. What's the most efficient ? - "Dear soldier, I think the way you handle your weapon is going to get you killed in a few moment. You should probably change that appropriately. If I may provide you this advice, of corse." - "Stop this shit now! You're going to shoot yourself!"

fermienrico 9y ago
Of all replies defending Linus I've read, this one hits home run. Linus himself admits[1] that his outrageous insults are sort of "jokey" and a hyperbole. That's the surface. The underlying tone is to get attention without getting drowned by political correctness. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ017D_JOPY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ017D_JOPY