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Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it. Many business failures i've witnessed happened ultimately because nobody had th
by Roritharr 9y ago
Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it.
Many business failures i've witnessed happened ultimately because nobody had the energy to cut down the bullshit forest that constantly regrows around a company.
- ShabbosGoy 9y ago> Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it. Which is why FOSS is so important. Can you imagine a world where Linux was closed source? You’d never have any insight into security patches, or these discussions.
- mrmondo 9y agoExactly, I’d love to see the state and flux of the Meltdown and Spectre patches for the various Windows kernels.
- joelthelion 9y ago> FOSS is so important FOSS is nice, but it's not a silver bullet. In this case I think Linus is largely to thank. Things will be a lot harder if he decides to retire.
- Cthulhu_ 9y agoA silver bullet is having one smart guy at the top who doesn't care how much pressure you exert on getting something into the codebase, or how much man-hours were spent (sunk cost fallacy). I think in a lot of "corporate" projects (not-open source) there's much less of that and the software is designed by commission, with the lead developer(s) quickly no longer having much of an influence on the code itself, being drawn away into meetings and such. Maybe I'm projecting.
- mrmondo 9y agoIt’s an ideological situation to say the least... but it’s also what we have right know and god damn I’m thankful for it’s beautiful rarity.
- joelthelion 9y ago> A silver bullet is having one smart guy at the top who doesn't care how much pressure you exert on getting something into the codebase, Well if Linus goes too far, Google and a couple other big corporate contributors could team up and fork Linux, and it would be very hard for the open project to compete. I think the fact that Linus is so good is a big part of what makes the whole thing hold together.
- subway 9y agoThey could, and they often do (Android and ChromeOS effectively run forked kernels). At the end of the day though, they always wanna rebase against that sweet sweet mainline quality.
- carlmr 9y agoIt's simple, the stack of hacks they produced in the meantime at some point becomes a tall tower prone to fall over.
- crdoconnor 9y agoI think this is dead on. I think at Microsoft that guy was Dave Cutler. Most of the really well designed stuff seems to have him at the helm - NT4.0, bits of XP, Win2k, Windows Server 2003 and then Azure. I have a suspicion that Satya's rise to CEOdom via Azure's success could be attributed to him too.
- EamonnMR 9y agoIf you're a Cutler fan you may enjoy Showstopper[1], an account of the creation of NT. 1: https://www.amazon.com/Show-Stopper-Breakneck-Generation-Microsoft/dp/0029356717 https://www.amazon.com/Show-Stopper-Breakneck-Generation-Mic...
- azinman2 9y agoThanks for the rec, looks interesting.
- trentnelson 9y agoIt's a great book. Motivated me to switch industries and relocate to Seattle as an NT kernel programmer.
- alxlaz 9y agoThis may be true, but FOSS does not magically make it happen. Many FOSS projects are led or dominated by large companies today; the development may happen in the open, but it is as "corporate" as it gets, and no bullshit calling occurs (or if it does, it is quickly silenced with EWONTFIX & co.)
- hajile 9y agoThat's only partially true. When you only have one corporations interests, things get shady very quickly. When you have multiple, competing corporations, they have a vested interest in keeping their competitors honest. It would be very rare indeed to find something that every company wanted to downplay at the same time. Spectre and meltdown are a great example of this. Sure, ARM, Intel, and (to a lesser extent) AMD may want to downplay these things, but Google did not, so it became a big deal anyway.
- vog 9y ago> This may be true, but FOSS does not magically make it happen So what? Nobody said that. This is a strawman. Of course FOSS is not sufficient. Look at any homework-style GitHub repo. Nobody disputes that. All that is said is that FOSS is necessary to achieve this level of quality.
- katastic 9y agoWhich is funny because that's the opposite of what progressives are telling us. That meritocracy is meaningless (and bigoted) and it's more important to have diversity than a leader. Likewise, there are countless articles about how Linus Torvalds is a "jerk" because he doesn't temper his words and ends up offending people with thin skins. I don't care about anyone's ideology. I'll I care about is results. And Linus has proven his yields results.
- khana 9y agoWell by all means don't 'speculate'.
- snambi 9y agoWe may be we can train an MBA to do Linus's job? ;)
- vog 9y agoSo you demote FOSS from "important" to "nice" just because it isn't a silver bullet? (which does not exist, anyway) That doesn't make any sense. This is a strawman argument. Nobody ever said that FOSS is a silver bullet, not even FSFE, FSF, or Stallman himself.
- acct1771 9y agoThis is as good a place to ask the question nobody likes to discuss, but is important to never forget - what do we do when the bus hits Linus?
- sethrin 9y agoI believe Greg Kroah-Hartman is the designated successor.
- dvfjsdhgfv 9y agoIn most other FOSS projects people would be afraid to be that frank when referring to Intel's behavior though.
- josteink 9y agoYou also have the case of SJWs and Internet lynch mob’s being a real life threats to your project, your personal privacy and potentially your employment if you don’t show yourself to be “tolerant” enough in your communication. Calling genuine shit out as such can literally land you in a shitstorm if the person receiving message is of wrong color or sexualual orientation, etc, and decides to make that the point of the story he passes along.
- awakeasleep 9y agoWow I didn’t think of that but what if a woman wrote the code in that patch? Linus would be making her feel unwelcome.
- xxs 9y agoThere are prior examples of his writing style offending a lady who turned to actually had a pretty potty mount, herself, as well.
- dvanduzer 9y agoAs long as a person doesn't pretend they've never been cruel to another person, it isn't hypocritical to call for more kindness. There is also a huge difference between using salty language to emphasize when something is massively complicated versus emphasis when calling someone a huge idiot. As far as this particular Torvalds screed goes, it strikes me as measured for him. He is very clear about what he wants more of and what he wants less of. It's the code that is garbage, and he doesn't get overly personal other than to chide Woodhouse for glossing over the quality of Woodhouse's own contributions. edit: ahh right, "mis-designed by morons" which is pretty inflammatory, and he should do better than that. I suspect he is trying to provoke someone at Intel into explaining their intent. Insult their intelligence, and they'll reveal something about their (possibly sinister) motive.
- Spooky23 9y agoWorse still, imagine a world where there was no Linux, and Oracle/Sun happened?
- peapicker 9y agoIronically, Sun might have not had to sell themselves to Oracle, and the world's server's might be running on SPARC chips that are immune to these issues. Linux is what allowed Intel to get its biggest foothold into the UNIX server market.
- dboreham 9y agoThis is true, but if there hadn't been Linux there would have been something else to fill this niche (runs on commodity PC hardware, zero license cost). Sparc/Solaris wouldn't have continued to rule. Intel would have found some other workable solution.
- digi_owl 9y agoIndeed. For one there was the 386BSD lawsuit, for another there was HURD. Torvalds himself has stated that if HURD had been usable at the time, he would not have bothered working on Linux. Honestly, back when Linux started getting momentum, RMS' GNU/Linux argument had merit. Most of the stuff people where running on top of Linux, never mind using to develop Linux, came from the GNU project.
- peapicker 9y agoTrue. And we'd have the same issues with this processor family now... Don't get me wrong, I love Linux and loved FreeBSD back when it was more easy to choose... But I do think the 'free UNIX' movement has had unintended consequences like the demise of Sun, and perhaps now also this exposing of a failure in what was a desktop class chip architecture that was elevated to server usage. Everything has a cost is all I'm saying.
- PopsiclePete 9y ago>Ironically, Sun might have not had to sell themselves to Oracle, and the world's server's might be running on SPARC chips that are immune to these issues. Solaris, with the exceptions of a few bright stars like DTrace and ZFS, always seemed like a POS to me, compared to linux. Especially as a work-station. Sun went full retard with Java everywhere right before they went under and I have a feeling the Solaris Desktop experience, and by extension the UNIX desktop experience, would be something from my worst nightmares, something to make wish for Windows Vista.
- bassman9000 9y agoWe should treasure it while it lasts, before PC culture silences him. And before downvoting, recall how many threads regarding Linus abusive behavior (sic) we've had.
- sametmax 9y agoWell, if the Linux Kernel would have been a democracy, it would not have the aspect it has today. It's a sad thing to say about the state of the human specie.
- hammock 9y agoWho said anything about democracy? The whole approach of private enterprise is to build up barriers (competitive advantage) AGAINST the prevailing tide. That's how positive change (differentiated goods, wealth) is created. The same can be said of free speech.
- nielsabel 9y ago> before PC culture silences him Damn you, Wintel!
- justaaron 9y agofinally someone made the reference :D
- jimktrains2 9y agoPc culture? What are you talking about? Linus is pc (in that he doesn't go on misogynistic, racist, or similar rants and doesn't denigrate people for their non-technical decisions) , he's just not nice to those that should know better. While I think you've also been bitten by the "we accept everyone! (who thinks the way we do)" crowd as well, this is not the place or the way to express that frustration.
- pessimizer 9y agoSome people think that directness and honesty is identical to saying racist, sexist, and homophobic things. So "PC" becomes equivalent to "lying to make people like you."
- LyndsySimon 9y ago> Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it. It also requires the social capital necessary for the calls to be taken seriously. I don't worry about Linus being silenced by prevailing culture; I worry that there won't be another Linus after him.
- ChuckMcM 9y agoThis is a serious concern. If Linus were replaced by someone more pliable/less attentive Linux will have a serious problem.
- ben_jones 9y agoOr someone influenced by $$$
- PopsiclePete 9y agoThat's the problem with "rockstars and "benevolent dictators", the Linuses and the Elon Musks, isn't it? Everything is great until they go away for whatever reason and nobody can fill the void. Hell, there's people still doubting Tim Cook on whether he can fill Jobs' shoes. I wonder if something like FreeBSD is better suited for sustainability - from what I can tell, there's no "dictator" figure there, no critical single point of failure.
- Waterluvian 9y agoIt makes me wonder if there are ways to structure an organization in a way that once it has found its purpose and voice, it becomes rigid in its trajectory. Consider an organization that would rather cease to exist or be relevant, than to allow itself all the freedoms to pivot and mutate significantly.
- niho 9y agoActually... There is a great historical example of just that. It’s called the Catholic Church.
- PopsiclePete 9y ago>Many business failures i've witnessed happened ultimately because nobody had the energy to cut down the bullshit forest that constantly regrows around a company. I've worked at a company that had 20 people and a company that's had 5000 and some ones in between. Going from 2-3 people to 20 is pretty manageable. Everyone knows each other, work gets done, you can call people out on their bullshit, stuff is fixed, because everyone feels responsible and accountable. Then you go to 100 people and a few of the original 20 leave and the whole culture changes. 1000's of people? Totally different ball game. Incompetence will slip through, no single person has a full grasp on everything, meetings and more meetings and more managers playing broken telephone all day and you got people in different cities and time zones and countries who've never seen each other face-to-face and it's just a nightmare to manage that. It can be done, but that's when you really need competent managers, and those are extremely hard to come by. I'm sure there are teams and divisions within Intel that are extremely competent, people at the top of their game who are looking at this debacle and just shaking their heads just as much as Linus.
- otakucode 9y agoI'd argue that it could be done, but no longer can. In the past, all of the failings of corporate structures were more than made up for by the value they brought. They solved the problem of distribution, both distributing work to workers and end product to consumers. This was outrageously valuable for a century. Now, however, it's nearly worthless. Anyone can do distribution, both of work and of end products, with very little effort thanks to computers and the Internet. Now, the limitations of those corporate structures are starting to cut deeper and not be compensated for. Their assumption of all of the tremendous failings of in-person human communication (that 'broken telephone' you mention is only part of it, there's also the inherent prejudices and irrational means of influence at play which are inescapable) in combination with both voluntarily abandoning essentially every single benefit they ever offered to employees and the inherent limitations in such a centralized structure will result in them falling apart. I mean, if the market has anything to say about it. Back when factories got big people accepted things like limitations in variety of goods, limited to nil personalization, etc because supporting those things was difficult for factories. Such is still difficult for large companies. They have executives who want to impress 'grand visions' upon the company so that they have some excuse (both personal and professional) to collect such absurdly overlarge compensation. The human brain, by the way, is limited to keeping around 150 people in mind and maintaining stable relationships with them. It's called 'Dunbar's Number' and while there's certainly variation amongst different people with regard to it, I think we can safely presume there is no one with the ability to maintain and consider 1000+ stable relationships. That this is not reflected in our social structures is probably an error.
- Chaebixi 9y ago> Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it. > Many business failures i've witnessed happened ultimately because nobody had the energy to cut down the bullshit forest that constantly regrows around a company. The sad thing is that people have unironically labeled Linus "toxic" for calling out crap very bluntly like this.