5 ms·

...because patients with CF have hypotonic secretions in the lungs, resulting in mucous plugging, and the inhalation of a hypertonic solution into the same spac

...because patients with CF have hypotonic secretions in the lungs, resulting in mucous plugging, and the inhalation of a hypertonic solution into the same space would cause a fluid shift that would dilute the aforementioned mucous... which is to say, it’s an empirically-verified intervention with a solid grounding in the underlying pathophysiology. Whereas just eating sea salt has absolutely nothing to do with any of that. Which is to say, it’s anecdotal -and- not grounded in an underlying reasoning that makes sense in the context of the disease.

DoreenMichele 9y ago
It is a mental model that assumes that CF is something in the lungs. This is not true. It is throughout the body, but especially impacts epidermal tissue, which includes both lung tissue and skin. Surfers are not just inhaling salty sea air. They are immersed in salt water and absorbing it through their skin. Plus people with CF are medically prescribed a high salt diet, so your assertion isn't really accurate. Consuming enough salt is a known treatment modality for CF. The only real difference here is that I felt the quality of salt mattered greatly. Furthermore, mucus is mostly salt and water, which is why you need to consume more of both when taking things like mucinex.
- whatshisface 9y ago
  >Quality of salt It's not on its face impossible for sea and rock salt to differ in trace minerals, but be aware that the salt itself is the same in both. From the medical stuff you mentioned it sounds like it's the salt itself that's having the beneficial effect and not the other minerals. Although, I do see an oft-overlooked wrinkle to it: the costs of these minor changes are so small that the odds that there might be something going on unknown to medicine might be worth taking.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    I think the other trace minerals matter. But I also think simply consuming kosher or canning and pickling salt is better than consuming standard table salt. Standard table salt typically has iodine added. It also has a chemical added to make it pour easier. This may not have a notable impact on a healthy person, but if you genetically misprocess various things and are medically prescribed a high amount of salt, that double whammy seems significant to me. You are consuming a lot of these extra chemicals and no one is questioning what that does to an already wonky physiology. I no longer purchase Celtic Sea Salt. It is no longer necessary. But I still avoid standard table salt and favor brands that list sea salt as an ingredient.
    - eitland 9y ago
      Adding iodine has generally been a huge success. Wikipedia: "Worldwide, iodine deficiency affects about two billion people and is the leading preventable cause of intellectual and developmental disabilities." Wikipedia also lists sources for this claim. Edit: if anybodys doctor told them to be careful with iodine then they should listen to their doctor instead of listening to random strangers on the internet. I'm just pointing out that there is good reasons why we started adding iodine to salt.
      - DoreenMichele 9y ago
        I am not talking about the general case. I am talking about two things: 1. The impact on me in specific, and I personally do not tolerate iodine well and 2. The impact on people with CF, who are told by their doctors to consume a high salt diet and there is zero commentary on the quality of the salt or the additives in it. As far as I know, there are no studies on how consuming those additives in high quantities impacts this population with a genetic disorder that causes them to misprocess a number of different things.
    - TheGrassyKnoll 9y ago
      Well also enjoy the plastic in your sea salt: Sea salt from around the world showing contamination by particlulate plastics (theguardian.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15206880
- arkades 9y ago
  It’s not a mental model that CF is something in the lungs; it’s a treatment aimed at the pulmonary manifestations of the disease. No one is positing that saline inhalations are going to preserve pancreatic function, but that’s not because they forgot about the pancreas. People with CF get a high salt diet because the same transporter defect causes an inability to reclaim sodium from sweat. This results in an inability to regulate water content, causing a hypovolemia. It’s not a “treatment modality” in that it directly treats the CF. It mitigates one consequence of CF: losing excess salt in sweat. That has nothing to do with dietary salt intake affecting the course of the disease generally. And I don’t know where you got the information that surfers are absorbing salt through their skin. As far as I know (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0167273892903783 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0167273892..., https://ac.els-cdn.com/S0022202X15470599/1-s2.0-S0022202X15470599-main.pdf?_tid=d0da5248-ff21-11e7-898c-00000aab0f02&acdnat=1516590816_4c6c71c22dfa4a1ea96121323d786efe https://ac.els-cdn.com/S0022202X15470599/1-s2.0-S0022202X154..., http://www.comprehensivephysiology.com/WileyCDA/CompPhysArticle/refId-cp090119.html http://www.comprehensivephysiology.com/WileyCDA/CompPhysArti...) that’s not a thing, but if you have any sources to the contrary I’d be interested in reading them.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    What can be absorbed through the skin depends on various factors: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_(skin) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_(skin) People with CF are prone to aquagenic wrinkling. In layman's terms, they get extremely pruney when they bath. This suggests they absorb the water at a higher rate than is normal due to their genetic disorder impacting epidermal function. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamadermatology/fullarticle/394464 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamadermatology/fullarticle... No one is positing that saline inhalations are going to preserve pancreatic function, but that’s not because they forgot about the pancreas. What I recall reading is that when people with CF surfed, their general prognosis was overall better. So if no one is positing that it has any impact on pancreatic function, then it seems to me they are viewing the data in highly selective terms and assuming it only impacts lung function and nothing else when the data does not suggest that. Granted, I haven't dug deeply into the original data because it wasn't important to me. I was only trying to understand the positive results I was getting for my own edification. My recollection is the study was done in Australia if you want to try to find it. I will add that it isn't actually necessary to prove people with CF absorb it through the skin. The article we are discussing states that surfers swallow a great deal more sea water than swimmers, 10x iirc. So surfers are, in fact, consuming sea salt.

DoreenMichele 9y ago

It is a mental model that assumes that CF is something in the lungs. This is not true. It is throughout the body, but especially impacts epidermal tissue, which includes both lung tissue and skin. Surfers are not just inhaling salty sea air. They are immersed in salt water and absorbing it through their skin. Plus people with CF are medically prescribed a high salt diet, so your assertion isn't really accurate. Consuming enough salt is a known treatment modality for CF. The only real difference here is that I felt the quality of salt mattered greatly. Furthermore, mucus is mostly salt and water, which is why you need to consume more of both when taking things like mucinex.

whatshisface 9y ago
>Quality of salt It's not on its face impossible for sea and rock salt to differ in trace minerals, but be aware that the salt itself is the same in both. From the medical stuff you mentioned it sounds like it's the salt itself that's having the beneficial effect and not the other minerals. Although, I do see an oft-overlooked wrinkle to it: the costs of these minor changes are so small that the odds that there might be something going on unknown to medicine might be worth taking.
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  I think the other trace minerals matter. But I also think simply consuming kosher or canning and pickling salt is better than consuming standard table salt. Standard table salt typically has iodine added. It also has a chemical added to make it pour easier. This may not have a notable impact on a healthy person, but if you genetically misprocess various things and are medically prescribed a high amount of salt, that double whammy seems significant to me. You are consuming a lot of these extra chemicals and no one is questioning what that does to an already wonky physiology. I no longer purchase Celtic Sea Salt. It is no longer necessary. But I still avoid standard table salt and favor brands that list sea salt as an ingredient.
  - eitland 9y ago
    Adding iodine has generally been a huge success. Wikipedia: "Worldwide, iodine deficiency affects about two billion people and is the leading preventable cause of intellectual and developmental disabilities." Wikipedia also lists sources for this claim. Edit: if anybodys doctor told them to be careful with iodine then they should listen to their doctor instead of listening to random strangers on the internet. I'm just pointing out that there is good reasons why we started adding iodine to salt.
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      I am not talking about the general case. I am talking about two things: 1. The impact on me in specific, and I personally do not tolerate iodine well and 2. The impact on people with CF, who are told by their doctors to consume a high salt diet and there is zero commentary on the quality of the salt or the additives in it. As far as I know, there are no studies on how consuming those additives in high quantities impacts this population with a genetic disorder that causes them to misprocess a number of different things.
  - TheGrassyKnoll 9y ago
    Well also enjoy the plastic in your sea salt: Sea salt from around the world showing contamination by particlulate plastics (theguardian.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15206880
arkades 9y ago
It’s not a mental model that CF is something in the lungs; it’s a treatment aimed at the pulmonary manifestations of the disease. No one is positing that saline inhalations are going to preserve pancreatic function, but that’s not because they forgot about the pancreas. People with CF get a high salt diet because the same transporter defect causes an inability to reclaim sodium from sweat. This results in an inability to regulate water content, causing a hypovolemia. It’s not a “treatment modality” in that it directly treats the CF. It mitigates one consequence of CF: losing excess salt in sweat. That has nothing to do with dietary salt intake affecting the course of the disease generally. And I don’t know where you got the information that surfers are absorbing salt through their skin. As far as I know (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0167273892903783 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0167273892..., https://ac.els-cdn.com/S0022202X15470599/1-s2.0-S0022202X15470599-main.pdf?_tid=d0da5248-ff21-11e7-898c-00000aab0f02&acdnat=1516590816_4c6c71c22dfa4a1ea96121323d786efe https://ac.els-cdn.com/S0022202X15470599/1-s2.0-S0022202X154..., http://www.comprehensivephysiology.com/WileyCDA/CompPhysArticle/refId-cp090119.html http://www.comprehensivephysiology.com/WileyCDA/CompPhysArti...) that’s not a thing, but if you have any sources to the contrary I’d be interested in reading them.
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  What can be absorbed through the skin depends on various factors: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_(skin) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_(skin) People with CF are prone to aquagenic wrinkling. In layman's terms, they get extremely pruney when they bath. This suggests they absorb the water at a higher rate than is normal due to their genetic disorder impacting epidermal function. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamadermatology/fullarticle/394464 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamadermatology/fullarticle... No one is positing that saline inhalations are going to preserve pancreatic function, but that’s not because they forgot about the pancreas. What I recall reading is that when people with CF surfed, their general prognosis was overall better. So if no one is positing that it has any impact on pancreatic function, then it seems to me they are viewing the data in highly selective terms and assuming it only impacts lung function and nothing else when the data does not suggest that. Granted, I haven't dug deeply into the original data because it wasn't important to me. I was only trying to understand the positive results I was getting for my own edification. My recollection is the study was done in Australia if you want to try to find it. I will add that it isn't actually necessary to prove people with CF absorb it through the skin. The article we are discussing states that surfers swallow a great deal more sea water than swimmers, 10x iirc. So surfers are, in fact, consuming sea salt.