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Someone who does any study of the history of ideas will run into the still ubiquitous and somewhat self-aggrandizing paradigm in the discipline. In coarse outl

Someone who does any study of the history of ideas will run into the still ubiquitous and somewhat self-aggrandizing paradigm in the discipline. In coarse outline: that rational thinking is something which started with the Greeks and was carried like a torch through various high-watermarks in western history, and in essence is one of the things that distinguishes (and elevates) the west from the rest of the world. Granted, some tips of the hat have been granted the ancient philosophies of India, China and the Muslim world, but these are mainly noted as they have contributed to the forward march of western ideas. The linked article could be largely interpreted to be in the same vein: i.e. great because it coincides with a major western thought tradition. Still, interesting to learn that Ethiopia had a scholarly tradition of which we have heard very little. Also interesting that enlightenment ideas seem to have surfaced at approximately the same time, in totally separate places. I dare say we tend to believe that ideas spread via diffusion, maybe that is not so at all.

empath75 9y ago
The Greeks benefited by creating systems of thought that were propagated by academies and books, and were supported and protected by a vast, powerful empire for over a thousand years. They happened to have laid the foundation for university education in the west, where the industrial revolution took off first. It doesn’t take much to imagine a world where the industrial revolution happened in China first and we’d all be talking about how everyone considers confuscious the only important philosopher while overlooking Plato and Aristotle. Hell in a hundred years that could still happen.
UweSchmidt 9y ago
Of course our own history is more important to us than others' (which are extensively studied in the west as well), and cherry picking and narrative writing is also an ethical statement: We point to the values of ancient Greek democracy as our own democracy is in danger. We refer to the thinkers in our past as scientific thinking is questioned today. Especially when dealing with Greeks (and Romans), it is amazing how much of what is going on today was established and founded back then (e.g. German law is based on Roman law, therefore a law professor might look for clues in Roman values, not in Chinese values).
- stareatgoats 9y ago
  Agree it is only natural to be more preoccupied with a perceived 'own' history. But (quite commonly I would argue) we tend to use widespread but shallow perceptions of such a history to push an agenda, which may or may not be justified. For example, did you know that our current concept of democracy was seen as abhorrent by the ancient Athenians? They preferred 'sortition', or representation by lottery in order to avoid the risk of corruption of elected officials [1]. Can't say that they didn't have a point, and that their warnings have all but disappeared in intellectual history also points to (if not proves) some disengagement from actual facts in favor of self-aggrandizement in the discipline that I hinted at in the parent comment. I may be a bit unfair to a whole discipline, but this was one of main takeaways from several years in university level intellectual history. I came in hoping it would be a detached and inquisitive investigation into the history of human thought in general. I was disappointed, but I learned a lot, still. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS9EMvbBq_U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS9EMvbBq_U (3 minute agitation for sortition, but mentions the ancient Greeks at least)
  - WillReplyfFood 9y ago
    The problem with corruption is the attempt to prevent it, instead of managing it. Sell a % of power but not at a fixed price- sell it in a hidden auction, call that one taxes, he who invests the most cash into it has the most of the fixed power percentage. Remove lobbyism to end corruption in the classic sence - and voila, democracy 2.0. "If we must have crime, we may as well organize it."
- mygo 9y ago
  It’s one thing to acknowledge that our own history is more important to us. It’s another thing to acknowledge that we can not fully be truth seekers / scholars when we let our preferences adulterate the search of truth
mc32 9y ago
In that vein, one could examine the extra traditional mentions in other philosophical traditions. That is what you said will be evident in Chinese, Persian, Indian, etc., philosophical traditions. Each main tradition will focus on its own mainline and make some minor reference to others. Even Korea and Japan while objectively borrowing from China at times will assert their traditions as being quite native. Marginalized people under a dominant tradition may use a foreign tradition to assert themselves in a society which may otherwise ignore them. For example, you may find Dalits of India use Western philosophical language to overcome indigenous philosophical oppression.
jboynyc 9y ago
> we tend to believe that ideas spread via diffusion, maybe that is not so at all. That was also what Karl Jaspers claimed in The Origin and Goal of History with regard to earlier intellectual breakthroughs in the first millennium BCE that mark the beginning of most of the world's major religions. He thought the parallel developments in Greece, Palestine, India and China (as well as Persia, though that is now disputed) could not be explained by diffusion, but rather as a single spiritual event that played out independently in multiple locations. He called this event the Achsenzeit (originally translated as "axial period", now more commonly rendered as "axial age").

empath75 9y ago

The Greeks benefited by creating systems of thought that were propagated by academies and books, and were supported and protected by a vast, powerful empire for over a thousand years. They happened to have laid the foundation for university education in the west, where the industrial revolution took off first. It doesn’t take much to imagine a world where the industrial revolution happened in China first and we’d all be talking about how everyone considers confuscious the only important philosopher while overlooking Plato and Aristotle. Hell in a hundred years that could still happen.

UweSchmidt 9y ago

Of course our own history is more important to us than others' (which are extensively studied in the west as well), and cherry picking and narrative writing is also an ethical statement: We point to the values of ancient Greek democracy as our own democracy is in danger. We refer to the thinkers in our past as scientific thinking is questioned today. Especially when dealing with Greeks (and Romans), it is amazing how much of what is going on today was established and founded back then (e.g. German law is based on Roman law, therefore a law professor might look for clues in Roman values, not in Chinese values).

stareatgoats 9y ago
Agree it is only natural to be more preoccupied with a perceived 'own' history. But (quite commonly I would argue) we tend to use widespread but shallow perceptions of such a history to push an agenda, which may or may not be justified. For example, did you know that our current concept of democracy was seen as abhorrent by the ancient Athenians? They preferred 'sortition', or representation by lottery in order to avoid the risk of corruption of elected officials [1]. Can't say that they didn't have a point, and that their warnings have all but disappeared in intellectual history also points to (if not proves) some disengagement from actual facts in favor of self-aggrandizement in the discipline that I hinted at in the parent comment. I may be a bit unfair to a whole discipline, but this was one of main takeaways from several years in university level intellectual history. I came in hoping it would be a detached and inquisitive investigation into the history of human thought in general. I was disappointed, but I learned a lot, still. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS9EMvbBq_U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS9EMvbBq_U (3 minute agitation for sortition, but mentions the ancient Greeks at least)
- WillReplyfFood 9y ago
  The problem with corruption is the attempt to prevent it, instead of managing it. Sell a % of power but not at a fixed price- sell it in a hidden auction, call that one taxes, he who invests the most cash into it has the most of the fixed power percentage. Remove lobbyism to end corruption in the classic sence - and voila, democracy 2.0. "If we must have crime, we may as well organize it."
mygo 9y ago
It’s one thing to acknowledge that our own history is more important to us. It’s another thing to acknowledge that we can not fully be truth seekers / scholars when we let our preferences adulterate the search of truth

mc32 9y ago

In that vein, one could examine the extra traditional mentions in other philosophical traditions. That is what you said will be evident in Chinese, Persian, Indian, etc., philosophical traditions. Each main tradition will focus on its own mainline and make some minor reference to others. Even Korea and Japan while objectively borrowing from China at times will assert their traditions as being quite native. Marginalized people under a dominant tradition may use a foreign tradition to assert themselves in a society which may otherwise ignore them. For example, you may find Dalits of India use Western philosophical language to overcome indigenous philosophical oppression.

jboynyc 9y ago

> we tend to believe that ideas spread via diffusion, maybe that is not so at all. That was also what Karl Jaspers claimed in The Origin and Goal of History with regard to earlier intellectual breakthroughs in the first millennium BCE that mark the beginning of most of the world's major religions. He thought the parallel developments in Greece, Palestine, India and China (as well as Persia, though that is now disputed) could not be explained by diffusion, but rather as a single spiritual event that played out independently in multiple locations. He called this event the Achsenzeit (originally translated as "axial period", now more commonly rendered as "axial age").