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Fine, I won't use CAPS any more. I'm not yelling at the reader, but at the author, and even in that I am way more restrained than I should have been. As for t

Fine, I won't use CAPS any more. I'm not yelling at the reader, but at the author, and even in that I am way more restrained than I should have been. As for teaching, the teaching here is get the original Make book and go through the examples and understand them; there is no need for me to repeat what smarter and more learned men (namely the author of the Make book) have already written.

dang 9y ago
The yelling affects everyone. When you post like that you're degrading the discussion for everyone and damaging the site. A few will always like it because they happen to share what you're annoyed at, or they're annoyed at something else and want a hit of rant energy. But the rest of us just cringe. HN threads are supposed to be for thoughtful conversation, not getting anger out. That doesn't mean people can't comment on something that angers them, but it takes work to do it in a way that's informative to others. Mere venting falls below the quality line.
- Annatar 9y ago
  A thoughtful conversation requires a lot of insight and experience, both which appear to have taken a leave of absence. For a website aiming to provoke a thoughtful discussion, you (plural) sure like posting lots of inflammatory discussion material. Case in point: "death to Make!", and I quote the original article: It is accepted by all decent people that Make sucks and needs to die ... ... ... Unfortunately, all of the Make-replacements I am aware of copy one or more of Make's mistakes, and many of them make new and exciting mistakes of their own. I want to see an end to Make in my lifetime. As a service to the Make-replacement community, therefore, I present the following list of tempting but incorrect assumptions various build tools make about building software. Can you please provide some pointers on how I can effectively communicate a request to turn it down a couple of notches with respect to what appears to me to be a generation Y "hurt feelings" as evidenced by your response without hurting any feelings? Context: http://reason.com/archives/2017/10/26/the-fragile-generation http://reason.com/archives/2017/10/26/the-fragile-generation https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15993091 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15993091 have I managed to make my point clear?
  - dang 9y ago
    > A thoughtful conversation requires a lot of insight and experience, both which appear to have taken a leave of absence Yes, of course that's true, but all you've done is state the default condition of an internet forum. The whole idea of HN is to try to rise above that sludgey default, at least in part. It's a constant struggle because there's a constant downward pull, so we need users like you to understand the intention and post at a higher quality level. I'm sure you wouldn't litter in a city park, even if there was already some litter there. You might even pick some of the litter up, if you were feeling like a good citizen that day. If you'd take a look at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html and http://www.paulgraham.com/hackernews.html http://www.paulgraham.com/hackernews.html, I'm sure you'll get the idea.
    - Annatar 9y ago
      I’ve already prescribed the reading material and the mastery plan; am I understanding correctly that you’d also like me to write tutorials as comments in order to up the quality? How could I have worded my response differently? A subject like Make, being such a flexible, powerful tool takes years to master, hence the Windows / generation Y / Stackoverflow crowd backlash. Did you read some of the responses like “You do realise that it's quite a request to make? Getting a specific book and going trough it, until you reach enlightenment? Personally I'd say that any build system requiring me to read a full book to understand it has already failed to fulfil the requirements I have. Any time I don't have to spend fiddling with or learning about build systems is time well spent in my world.” These guys deserve far more than just yelling at them. The damage they cause to our industry and our work conditions because of their attitude is enormous, enough to want to leave the industry and never touch it again (I’ve been seriously considering a career switch after 30+ years of working with and on software and hardware). Instead of making progress, we’re regressing; for every student that studied under me, ten such guys crop up because our industry is perceived to pay well and provide job security, both intrinsically wrong motives to be in it. And they won’t listen, they think they know exactly what they’re talking about.
jonex 9y ago
You do realise that it's quite a request to make? Getting a specific book and going trough it, until you reach enlightenment? Personally I'd say that any build system requiring me to read a full book to understand it has already failed to fulfil the requirements I have. Any time I don't have to spend fiddling with or learning about build systems is time well spent in my world.
- Annatar 9y ago
  Do you want to master it or not? Your choice, but you won't master it via "Stack Overflow". What would you have done if you had grown up at Bell Labs, refused to read manual pages? Is it worth using shitty software or putting up with shitty software or reinventing the wheel over and over and over again just because you feel like mastering something is too much work? If it is... it's just one more reason for me to exit this industry, for I do not want to keep such company.
- jonex 9y ago
  Ok, just wondering, why would I get down-voted for this? I must have misunderstood the idea about down-voting, to me it looks like people are just expressing disagreement, I thought it was about discouraging impolite discussion?
  - Annatar 9y ago
    Read my last reply to the moderator and you will get an inkling as to why.
    - jonex 9y ago
      From that comment it seems that the down votes are about expressing anger that people like me have the opinion that build systems are a second order priority. I can't see how the comment itself should not be allowed as part of a discussion about the level of reading should be required to participate in a conversation about build systems?
      - 9y ago

dang 9y ago

The yelling affects everyone. When you post like that you're degrading the discussion for everyone and damaging the site. A few will always like it because they happen to share what you're annoyed at, or they're annoyed at something else and want a hit of rant energy. But the rest of us just cringe. HN threads are supposed to be for thoughtful conversation, not getting anger out. That doesn't mean people can't comment on something that angers them, but it takes work to do it in a way that's informative to others. Mere venting falls below the quality line.

Annatar 9y ago
A thoughtful conversation requires a lot of insight and experience, both which appear to have taken a leave of absence. For a website aiming to provoke a thoughtful discussion, you (plural) sure like posting lots of inflammatory discussion material. Case in point: "death to Make!", and I quote the original article: It is accepted by all decent people that Make sucks and needs to die ... ... ... Unfortunately, all of the Make-replacements I am aware of copy one or more of Make's mistakes, and many of them make new and exciting mistakes of their own. I want to see an end to Make in my lifetime. As a service to the Make-replacement community, therefore, I present the following list of tempting but incorrect assumptions various build tools make about building software. Can you please provide some pointers on how I can effectively communicate a request to turn it down a couple of notches with respect to what appears to me to be a generation Y "hurt feelings" as evidenced by your response without hurting any feelings? Context: http://reason.com/archives/2017/10/26/the-fragile-generation http://reason.com/archives/2017/10/26/the-fragile-generation https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15993091 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15993091 have I managed to make my point clear?
- dang 9y ago
  > A thoughtful conversation requires a lot of insight and experience, both which appear to have taken a leave of absence Yes, of course that's true, but all you've done is state the default condition of an internet forum. The whole idea of HN is to try to rise above that sludgey default, at least in part. It's a constant struggle because there's a constant downward pull, so we need users like you to understand the intention and post at a higher quality level. I'm sure you wouldn't litter in a city park, even if there was already some litter there. You might even pick some of the litter up, if you were feeling like a good citizen that day. If you'd take a look at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html and http://www.paulgraham.com/hackernews.html http://www.paulgraham.com/hackernews.html, I'm sure you'll get the idea.
  - Annatar 9y ago
    I’ve already prescribed the reading material and the mastery plan; am I understanding correctly that you’d also like me to write tutorials as comments in order to up the quality? How could I have worded my response differently? A subject like Make, being such a flexible, powerful tool takes years to master, hence the Windows / generation Y / Stackoverflow crowd backlash. Did you read some of the responses like “You do realise that it's quite a request to make? Getting a specific book and going trough it, until you reach enlightenment? Personally I'd say that any build system requiring me to read a full book to understand it has already failed to fulfil the requirements I have. Any time I don't have to spend fiddling with or learning about build systems is time well spent in my world.” These guys deserve far more than just yelling at them. The damage they cause to our industry and our work conditions because of their attitude is enormous, enough to want to leave the industry and never touch it again (I’ve been seriously considering a career switch after 30+ years of working with and on software and hardware). Instead of making progress, we’re regressing; for every student that studied under me, ten such guys crop up because our industry is perceived to pay well and provide job security, both intrinsically wrong motives to be in it. And they won’t listen, they think they know exactly what they’re talking about.

jonex 9y ago

You do realise that it's quite a request to make? Getting a specific book and going trough it, until you reach enlightenment? Personally I'd say that any build system requiring me to read a full book to understand it has already failed to fulfil the requirements I have. Any time I don't have to spend fiddling with or learning about build systems is time well spent in my world.

Annatar 9y ago
Do you want to master it or not? Your choice, but you won't master it via "Stack Overflow". What would you have done if you had grown up at Bell Labs, refused to read manual pages? Is it worth using shitty software or putting up with shitty software or reinventing the wheel over and over and over again just because you feel like mastering something is too much work? If it is... it's just one more reason for me to exit this industry, for I do not want to keep such company.
jonex 9y ago
Ok, just wondering, why would I get down-voted for this? I must have misunderstood the idea about down-voting, to me it looks like people are just expressing disagreement, I thought it was about discouraging impolite discussion?
- Annatar 9y ago
  Read my last reply to the moderator and you will get an inkling as to why.
  - jonex 9y ago
    From that comment it seems that the down votes are about expressing anger that people like me have the opinion that build systems are a second order priority. I can't see how the comment itself should not be allowed as part of a discussion about the level of reading should be required to participate in a conversation about build systems?
    - 9y ago