5 ms·

Forgive my ignorance but what makes org mode better than markdown? Whenever I see it demonstrated it seems to be just another way of marking up content in plain

Forgive my ignorance but what makes org mode better than markdown? Whenever I see it demonstrated it seems to be just another way of marking up content in plain text. Is there more to it?

zimablue 9y ago
I have never really used org-mode in anger but it's markdown in the context of an editor to which you have access to the primitives of in lisp with lots of attached features. For example a calendar and a simple spreadsheet.
ryandrake 9y ago
We always need another way to mark up plain text content. The current dozens or so of mostly incompatible solutions is clearly not enough for the world.
- hyperpape 9y ago
  Org mode is slightly older than Markdown, and certainly older than Markdown's status as a default way to mark up text. More than that, it doesn't make sense to think that Markdown is the best solution, or at least the best solution for all use cases. People should continue to try and innovate, at least if they're aiming for something bigger than trivial improvements on the status quo.
dangom 9y ago
Org-mode's syntax isn't necessarily better than markdown's. The selling point of Org is that it is extremely extensible and synergizes well with the rest of the Emacs ecosystem. Tools like org-export, org-babel and the org-agenda - examples of the power of Org-mode - could in theory be implemented for markdown within any other editor. Until that happens, though, Org-mode continues to be better.
Hemospectrum 9y ago
Markdown is for writing human-readable text. Org-mode is for organizing many kinds of information (dates, tables, checklists...) in structured documents, while letting the user decide what that structure actually is. Both can be used for writing README files, but their feature sets are very different on the whole.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
saulrh 9y ago
If you're looking at it purely as an interchange format for pretty documents, no. However, once you think about actually using it, the tooling for the format is fantastically more powerful. A small selection of some of the standouts: Emacs' better understanding of the structure gives you much better editing; I have chords for operations like "move this item up/down" and "promote/demote this item", plus excellent folding, jumping, and a measure of intellisense-like functionality. org-babel can do anything that even looks like literate programming. I make regular use of both its notebook functionality (like ipython) and its more traditional features (compile to a documentation part and a code part), and its integration with emacs lets you do things like pop out to edit a code block in its native mode as if it were a little tiny file. org-agenda and org-todo use the format's support for rich semantic metadata to do anything you could want from a calendar, bug tracker, organizer, note-taker, or list manager. You can tag your items with indexed keywords, arbitrary and even simultaneous to-do workflows, and arbitrary (and I do mean arbitrary, it's emacs and everything can be an elisp snippet) to-do deadlines and recurrences. And all that data isn't just a wash; a wealth of options exist for slicing and dicing your data in any number of ways, high-level overview or detailed statistics. And on top of all that, you can render org-mode documents to nearly any markup under the sun! I regularly compose documents in org, using all of this power, and export to markdown or html to publish.
- roryisok 9y ago
  But it really sounds like you're telling me about things Emacs can do. If I don't use Emacs, what advantage does org mode hold for me? This link is for org mode in vscode, which I do use, but from what I can see it doesn't do any of that fancy stuff there?
  - tomsthumb 9y ago
    Those are not things that emacs does outside the context of org mode. From your comment, the implementation of org mode in vscode sounds sparse. This is not a deficit in org mode but rather the implementation.
  - saulrh 9y ago
    Yes, if you're not using emacs you don't get much from the format itself. Which is why everyone talks about org-mode, not the file format. That said, available libraries matter when you're choosing a programming language, and interop and available integrations matter when you're choosing, say, a bug tracker; why wouldn't the available editing tools matter when you're choosing a calendar+agenda+literate-programming environment+note-taker+organizer? I'd almost say that a "mode" for editing org-mode files almost doesn't deserve to be called "org-mode for X" if it doesn't do all the fancy stuff. It'd be like calling telnet a gmail client because you can theoretically negotiate an SSL handshake by hand - yes, but that's not the point. I think that people came into this thread hoping for a vscode extension that does everything that emacs org-mode does, but I don't think that that's something that'll happen, unfortunately, not unless vscode's architectural philosophy is very different from what I expect.
arca_vorago 9y ago
For one, other markdowns haven't really stuck to a standard, so there are many slightly varied markdown variants and it gets annoying keeping up with them. Another reason I prefer orgmode is the built in exporting functions are second to none. Customize the css and export to html, or my favorite is to export to latex+pdf, because everyone knows latex makes the most beautiful documents. As an aspiring data scientist (transitioning senior sysadmin), the code snippets function and the ability to evaluate and execute code makes it the ideal data science notebook. The power of lisp stands on its own. Org mode task tracking, todo, GTD functions are also very awesome functions just markdown doesn't have. That's just a few reasons, but orgmode isn't orgmode if it's in visual studio EEE version or whatever the duck new bullshit ms is doing imnsho.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  > or my favorite is to export to latex+pdf, because everyone knows latex makes the most beautiful documents. Hah, my observation from early days of using org-mode: LaTeX makes the most beautiful documents, but writing tables in them absolutely sucks. OTOH, org-mode has the most productive interface to plaintext tables that I've ever seen. When I was working on my BSc thesis, I would make tables in org-mode, and then export them as LaTeX to paste into the thesis code.
  - danieldk 9y ago
    org-mode has the most productive interface to plaintext tables that I've ever seen I fully agree. For Markdown I recently found this nice little utility that I had never heard of before: https://tableflipapp.com/ https://tableflipapp.com/ (I still do some websites in Jekyll + Markdown. I know that Jekyll can be combined with org-mode, but Markdown is the 'low-entropy and I do not have time' option.)
  - davidmr 9y ago
    That's a statement I hear a lot. A good friend wrote his physics dissertation entirely in org mode because of the TeX integration. You can even bring in the custom TeX templates every University's thesis publishing offices unaccountably seem to have.
MikusR 9y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15321850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15321850
TeMPOraL 9y ago
> Is there more to it? Yes. Org Mode. I.e. the huge, extremely versatile, extensible and powerful (and complicated at times) Emacs package that uses (and defines) this format. As a way of marking text up, it's not much different from everything else. But combined with org mode, it's probably the most hacker-friendly system for managing todos, events, habits, information, and multiple-format publishing - and all of that in simple plain text. Personally, I use org mode for blog posts on my new site, for managing my todos, meetings, notes, brainstorms and personal wiki. People also use it as a better (self-hosted!) equivalent of Jupyter notebooks, for literate programming, and plenty of other cool things. So, TL;DR: it's not the format that's the magic, it's the software around it. EDIT: Oh, and tables. Org mode has the single most productive plaintext interface for manipulating tables. It can even work as a basic spreadsheet in a pinch.
- roryisok 9y ago
  So if I don't use Emacs, org mode is sort of pointless then? This link is for org mode in vscode which can't do any of those things?
  - terminalcommand 9y ago
    The main feature of org-mode I find really helpful is the org-agenda. You could just try a bit. You don't have to learn Emacs shortcuts, arrow keys work. For navigating between files use the menubar with a mouse. File -> Open file -> testtodo.org Type "* Something to do", hit C-c C-t, TODO will appear, hit C-c C-t again, the state will be marked as DONE. Hit C-c C-s, calendar will open you can select a date to schedule. Hit C-c [ to add the file to your agenda (permanently). Hit M-x, type "org-agenda", a menu will apear, hit a, to see all your scheduled items for the week. Hit j to select another date. (C is control key, M is meta key, a.k.a Alt) (C-c means ctrl+c, C-s means ctrl+s, M-x means alt+x, you get the idea) That's all there is, it takes some getting used to, but a plain text format is really productive. You can easily search between items, transfer your files, customize it all you want. I probably use very of org-mode's capabilities, but it really helped me organize my life.
  - CamTin 9y ago
baby 9y ago
I tried learning and using org mode. In my case it doesn't make it better than markdown, it's faster to use if you know the keyboard shortcuts, it's more structured if you want to export content and it provides more functionalities. But for a simple list or an agenda markdown is fine, so I personally went back to markdown like that I can do things from ST.
tomsthumb 9y ago
Literate programming/ops More obvious nesting structure It manages many structures for you so you don’t have to type the text Time tracking Agenda mode and associated task states and due dates
GlennS 9y ago
Other people have pointed out that most of the power comes from using Emacs. However, speaking as someone who used to use Notepad++ and Markdown, and now uses Emacs and org-mode, I do think .org is a slightly better markup syntax. I can't quite put my finger on it. For some reason, Markdown seems great for a page or two, but gets irritating if I try to write longer documents. Possibly it's just a matter of editor support for treating it as a tree and letting you move bits around. Also, the tables in org-mode are really good.

Forgive my ignorance but what makes org mode better than markdown? Whenever I see it demonstrated it seems to be just another way of marking up content in plain text. Is there more to it?

zimablue 9y ago

I have never really used org-mode in anger but it's markdown in the context of an editor to which you have access to the primitives of in lisp with lots of attached features. For example a calendar and a simple spreadsheet.

ryandrake 9y ago

We always need another way to mark up plain text content. The current dozens or so of mostly incompatible solutions is clearly not enough for the world.

hyperpape 9y ago
Org mode is slightly older than Markdown, and certainly older than Markdown's status as a default way to mark up text. More than that, it doesn't make sense to think that Markdown is the best solution, or at least the best solution for all use cases. People should continue to try and innovate, at least if they're aiming for something bigger than trivial improvements on the status quo.

dangom 9y ago

Org-mode's syntax isn't necessarily better than markdown's. The selling point of Org is that it is extremely extensible and synergizes well with the rest of the Emacs ecosystem. Tools like org-export, org-babel and the org-agenda - examples of the power of Org-mode - could in theory be implemented for markdown within any other editor. Until that happens, though, Org-mode continues to be better.

Hemospectrum 9y ago

Markdown is for writing human-readable text. Org-mode is for organizing many kinds of information (dates, tables, checklists...) in structured documents, while letting the user decide what that structure actually is. Both can be used for writing README files, but their feature sets are very different on the whole.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

saulrh 9y ago

If you're looking at it purely as an interchange format for pretty documents, no. However, once you think about actually using it, the tooling for the format is fantastically more powerful. A small selection of some of the standouts: Emacs' better understanding of the structure gives you much better editing; I have chords for operations like "move this item up/down" and "promote/demote this item", plus excellent folding, jumping, and a measure of intellisense-like functionality. org-babel can do anything that even looks like literate programming. I make regular use of both its notebook functionality (like ipython) and its more traditional features (compile to a documentation part and a code part), and its integration with emacs lets you do things like pop out to edit a code block in its native mode as if it were a little tiny file. org-agenda and org-todo use the format's support for rich semantic metadata to do anything you could want from a calendar, bug tracker, organizer, note-taker, or list manager. You can tag your items with indexed keywords, arbitrary and even simultaneous to-do workflows, and arbitrary (and I do mean arbitrary, it's emacs and everything can be an elisp snippet) to-do deadlines and recurrences. And all that data isn't just a wash; a wealth of options exist for slicing and dicing your data in any number of ways, high-level overview or detailed statistics. And on top of all that, you can render org-mode documents to nearly any markup under the sun! I regularly compose documents in org, using all of this power, and export to markdown or html to publish.

roryisok 9y ago
But it really sounds like you're telling me about things Emacs can do. If I don't use Emacs, what advantage does org mode hold for me? This link is for org mode in vscode, which I do use, but from what I can see it doesn't do any of that fancy stuff there?
- tomsthumb 9y ago
  Those are not things that emacs does outside the context of org mode. From your comment, the implementation of org mode in vscode sounds sparse. This is not a deficit in org mode but rather the implementation.
- saulrh 9y ago
  Yes, if you're not using emacs you don't get much from the format itself. Which is why everyone talks about org-mode, not the file format. That said, available libraries matter when you're choosing a programming language, and interop and available integrations matter when you're choosing, say, a bug tracker; why wouldn't the available editing tools matter when you're choosing a calendar+agenda+literate-programming environment+note-taker+organizer? I'd almost say that a "mode" for editing org-mode files almost doesn't deserve to be called "org-mode for X" if it doesn't do all the fancy stuff. It'd be like calling telnet a gmail client because you can theoretically negotiate an SSL handshake by hand - yes, but that's not the point. I think that people came into this thread hoping for a vscode extension that does everything that emacs org-mode does, but I don't think that that's something that'll happen, unfortunately, not unless vscode's architectural philosophy is very different from what I expect.

arca_vorago 9y ago

For one, other markdowns haven't really stuck to a standard, so there are many slightly varied markdown variants and it gets annoying keeping up with them. Another reason I prefer orgmode is the built in exporting functions are second to none. Customize the css and export to html, or my favorite is to export to latex+pdf, because everyone knows latex makes the most beautiful documents. As an aspiring data scientist (transitioning senior sysadmin), the code snippets function and the ability to evaluate and execute code makes it the ideal data science notebook. The power of lisp stands on its own. Org mode task tracking, todo, GTD functions are also very awesome functions just markdown doesn't have. That's just a few reasons, but orgmode isn't orgmode if it's in visual studio EEE version or whatever the duck new bullshit ms is doing imnsho.

TeMPOraL 9y ago
> or my favorite is to export to latex+pdf, because everyone knows latex makes the most beautiful documents. Hah, my observation from early days of using org-mode: LaTeX makes the most beautiful documents, but writing tables in them absolutely sucks. OTOH, org-mode has the most productive interface to plaintext tables that I've ever seen. When I was working on my BSc thesis, I would make tables in org-mode, and then export them as LaTeX to paste into the thesis code.
- danieldk 9y ago
  org-mode has the most productive interface to plaintext tables that I've ever seen I fully agree. For Markdown I recently found this nice little utility that I had never heard of before: https://tableflipapp.com/ https://tableflipapp.com/ (I still do some websites in Jekyll + Markdown. I know that Jekyll can be combined with org-mode, but Markdown is the 'low-entropy and I do not have time' option.)
- davidmr 9y ago
  That's a statement I hear a lot. A good friend wrote his physics dissertation entirely in org mode because of the TeX integration. You can even bring in the custom TeX templates every University's thesis publishing offices unaccountably seem to have.

MikusR 9y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15321850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15321850

TeMPOraL 9y ago

> Is there more to it? Yes. Org Mode. I.e. the huge, extremely versatile, extensible and powerful (and complicated at times) Emacs package that uses (and defines) this format. As a way of marking text up, it's not much different from everything else. But combined with org mode, it's probably the most hacker-friendly system for managing todos, events, habits, information, and multiple-format publishing - and all of that in simple plain text. Personally, I use org mode for blog posts on my new site, for managing my todos, meetings, notes, brainstorms and personal wiki. People also use it as a better (self-hosted!) equivalent of Jupyter notebooks, for literate programming, and plenty of other cool things. So, TL;DR: it's not the format that's the magic, it's the software around it. EDIT: Oh, and tables. Org mode has the single most productive plaintext interface for manipulating tables. It can even work as a basic spreadsheet in a pinch.

roryisok 9y ago
So if I don't use Emacs, org mode is sort of pointless then? This link is for org mode in vscode which can't do any of those things?
- terminalcommand 9y ago
  The main feature of org-mode I find really helpful is the org-agenda. You could just try a bit. You don't have to learn Emacs shortcuts, arrow keys work. For navigating between files use the menubar with a mouse. File -> Open file -> testtodo.org Type "* Something to do", hit C-c C-t, TODO will appear, hit C-c C-t again, the state will be marked as DONE. Hit C-c C-s, calendar will open you can select a date to schedule. Hit C-c [ to add the file to your agenda (permanently). Hit M-x, type "org-agenda", a menu will apear, hit a, to see all your scheduled items for the week. Hit j to select another date. (C is control key, M is meta key, a.k.a Alt) (C-c means ctrl+c, C-s means ctrl+s, M-x means alt+x, you get the idea) That's all there is, it takes some getting used to, but a plain text format is really productive. You can easily search between items, transfer your files, customize it all you want. I probably use very of org-mode's capabilities, but it really helped me organize my life.
- CamTin 9y ago

baby 9y ago

I tried learning and using org mode. In my case it doesn't make it better than markdown, it's faster to use if you know the keyboard shortcuts, it's more structured if you want to export content and it provides more functionalities. But for a simple list or an agenda markdown is fine, so I personally went back to markdown like that I can do things from ST.

tomsthumb 9y ago

Literate programming/ops More obvious nesting structure It manages many structures for you so you don’t have to type the text Time tracking Agenda mode and associated task states and due dates

GlennS 9y ago

Other people have pointed out that most of the power comes from using Emacs. However, speaking as someone who used to use Notepad++ and Markdown, and now uses Emacs and org-mode, I do think .org is a slightly better markup syntax. I can't quite put my finger on it. For some reason, Markdown seems great for a page or two, but gets irritating if I try to write longer documents. Possibly it's just a matter of editor support for treating it as a tree and letting you move bits around. Also, the tables in org-mode are really good.