4 ms·

Im not sure which advanced society you are refering to. But i think you mean 40hrs of mandatory work. I worked at a chainsaw factory ~15yrs ago and in Canada &

Im not sure which advanced society you are refering to. But i think you mean 40hrs of mandatory work. I worked at a chainsaw factory ~15yrs ago and in Canada & the managers would put huge amounts of pressure on the workers to do constant overtime. When you are desperate for job security being seen as the worker who won't go the extra mile does not feel optional.

ZeroGravitas 9y ago
I sometimes wonder if someone has sat down and worked out that stealing from the employees in this way is actually a net positive for the firm or if one asshole just does it naturally and then it sets the rest in motion.
- skywhopper 9y ago
  While I agree that forced overtime is a problem. I'm not sure I would call it "stealing", as presumably these are hourly workers who are getting paid time-and-a-half wages for the overtime. At the local margins, it's definitely more efficient for the firm, since the other solution would be to hire more workers to meet peak demand who might then sit idle during lower demand periods. To some extent, common overtime availability can be beneficial to both the worker and the firm, but if the demand is highly consistent throughout the year, it's probably ultimately a net negative for the firm.
  - froindt 9y ago
    >At the local margins, it's definitely more efficient for the firm, since the other solution would be to hire more workers to meet peak demand who might then sit idle during lower demand periods. There are also times where it's not really a choice. I interned in a town of 1200 which hosted the only traffic light in the county and was 30 minutes away from a city of 30,000. Production was 4 10's, but turned into 5 10's when things were booming, and then an extra 4 hours on Saturday. The only way to guarantee a weekend of was to take a vacation day on Friday. They had a tough time hiring when it's booming. When the economy is good, good welders are in short supply everywhere (not just small towns). They pay sufficiently for living in the rural Midwest, the only way they can really get the work done is by working the hours.
    - abakker 9y ago
      This is a very interesting anecdote. The wage, QoL, amenities, and therefore labor pool asymmetry between larger cities and smaller towns puts many companies in this bind. Without the ability to attract labor, the situation in small towns becomes more and more dire, while competitors closer to the labor pool do better, can hire more part time workers etc. The cost of housing is pretty much the only mediating factor here, but people's expressed preferences seem to be shifting more and more toward cities. If you develop software it can be pretty trivial to relocate. If you run a steel mill, or a welding plant, the cost of moving (actual equipment, environmental controls, square footage) can make it nearly impossible.
      - froindt 9y ago
        Yep! I work in a heavy industry now and we have original installations of equipment that take 9-12 months typically (after the shell of the building is in place). Once it's installed, it's getting run as much as possible for profits, and contracts for delivering product could very well prevent being able to do a 12 month hold on production while moving. Some factories are located on rivers because the equipment brought in is many times the max allowable on roadways...there's no other way to get the equipment installed.
mschuster91 9y ago
> Im not sure which advanced society you are refering to. But i think you mean 40hrs of mandatory work Germany or any other civilized country with such things as laborer protection laws. But in a society with at-will employment like the US I wouldn't expect any kind of protection, so...
- darklajid 9y ago
  Yeah.. No. Having worked for a German company where 7-midnight shifts were a regular thing for month (project team of five): Sure. That's illegal. I know that, knew that then. But maybe you just want to do your job and get over with it. Then there's the fucked up problem between coworkers. Five people. If one says "Enough! I go home now after 12 hours!" then four are "Erm... why do you leave us to finish the tasks?". Germany (can't comment on other so-called civilized countries) is no help here if the employees feel that they're in a bind.
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    > Germany (can't comment on other so-called civilized countries) is no help here if the employees feel that they're in a bind. Yes, but these examples are rare and when you document your working time carefully you can get quite a load of money by going via the court system. In the US, they're widespread and no way for recourse.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  Putting too much faith in regulations here. Private industry always finds a way. And high-supply labour with no job security can't easily say no.

ZeroGravitas 9y ago

I sometimes wonder if someone has sat down and worked out that stealing from the employees in this way is actually a net positive for the firm or if one asshole just does it naturally and then it sets the rest in motion.

skywhopper 9y ago
While I agree that forced overtime is a problem. I'm not sure I would call it "stealing", as presumably these are hourly workers who are getting paid time-and-a-half wages for the overtime. At the local margins, it's definitely more efficient for the firm, since the other solution would be to hire more workers to meet peak demand who might then sit idle during lower demand periods. To some extent, common overtime availability can be beneficial to both the worker and the firm, but if the demand is highly consistent throughout the year, it's probably ultimately a net negative for the firm.
- froindt 9y ago
  >At the local margins, it's definitely more efficient for the firm, since the other solution would be to hire more workers to meet peak demand who might then sit idle during lower demand periods. There are also times where it's not really a choice. I interned in a town of 1200 which hosted the only traffic light in the county and was 30 minutes away from a city of 30,000. Production was 4 10's, but turned into 5 10's when things were booming, and then an extra 4 hours on Saturday. The only way to guarantee a weekend of was to take a vacation day on Friday. They had a tough time hiring when it's booming. When the economy is good, good welders are in short supply everywhere (not just small towns). They pay sufficiently for living in the rural Midwest, the only way they can really get the work done is by working the hours.
  - abakker 9y ago
    This is a very interesting anecdote. The wage, QoL, amenities, and therefore labor pool asymmetry between larger cities and smaller towns puts many companies in this bind. Without the ability to attract labor, the situation in small towns becomes more and more dire, while competitors closer to the labor pool do better, can hire more part time workers etc. The cost of housing is pretty much the only mediating factor here, but people's expressed preferences seem to be shifting more and more toward cities. If you develop software it can be pretty trivial to relocate. If you run a steel mill, or a welding plant, the cost of moving (actual equipment, environmental controls, square footage) can make it nearly impossible.
    - froindt 9y ago
      Yep! I work in a heavy industry now and we have original installations of equipment that take 9-12 months typically (after the shell of the building is in place). Once it's installed, it's getting run as much as possible for profits, and contracts for delivering product could very well prevent being able to do a 12 month hold on production while moving. Some factories are located on rivers because the equipment brought in is many times the max allowable on roadways...there's no other way to get the equipment installed.

mschuster91 9y ago

> Im not sure which advanced society you are refering to. But i think you mean 40hrs of mandatory work Germany or any other civilized country with such things as laborer protection laws. But in a society with at-will employment like the US I wouldn't expect any kind of protection, so...

darklajid 9y ago
Yeah.. No. Having worked for a German company where 7-midnight shifts were a regular thing for month (project team of five): Sure. That's illegal. I know that, knew that then. But maybe you just want to do your job and get over with it. Then there's the fucked up problem between coworkers. Five people. If one says "Enough! I go home now after 12 hours!" then four are "Erm... why do you leave us to finish the tasks?". Germany (can't comment on other so-called civilized countries) is no help here if the employees feel that they're in a bind.
- mschuster91 9y ago
  > Germany (can't comment on other so-called civilized countries) is no help here if the employees feel that they're in a bind. Yes, but these examples are rare and when you document your working time carefully you can get quite a load of money by going via the court system. In the US, they're widespread and no way for recourse.
TeMPOraL 9y ago
Putting too much faith in regulations here. Private industry always finds a way. And high-supply labour with no job security can't easily say no.