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UBI is supplemental income, you can still work. With a UBI, you wouldn't have to live in a tent because you could afford an apartment. I find it strange that s

UBI is supplemental income, you can still work. With a UBI, you wouldn't have to live in a tent because you could afford an apartment. I find it strange that someone who was once homeless is opposed to a policy like UBI that would end or at least severely curtail homelessness. So if not UBI, what's your solution?

DoreenMichele 9y ago
You can't still work if all the big wigs with the power to create jobs are not bothering to make work available because you have your UBI. I have already laid out my solution: accessible healthcare, affordable housing and restructuring work. And the reason I hold the position I hold is because I was homeless. So I know what bs it is to say "You can just move someplace cheaper and supplement your income." I was both willing and able to do both of those things. It isn't the easy answer folks imagine. I owe a bunch of money from making the move. People who, themselves, make money online mostly shat all over me and wouldn't help me figure out how to make money online while saying things to me like I was panhandling the internet for trying to figure out how to earn money online etc. UBI will not give anyone the knowledge, skills and connections necessary to turn free time into income. What it will do is allow classist or sexist or racist assholes to be more comfortable with shutting out Those People from the paths to an earned income because, hey, you don't need me to give you an opportunity. You have your UBI. If we don't fix the affordable housing mess, UBI fixes nothing. There are lots of places where $10k is basically just rent for the year, with no money leftover for anything else. And if you think people can just move to the cheap seats, it is hard to find a place for under $500/mo. That leaves less than $500/mo to cover all other living expenses. I have lived on that kind of a budget. I have looked for housing on that kind of a budget. I know firsthand how hard it is to make that work. So when folks who likely have more income than me post imaginary stories about what a piece of cake life will be when there are no jobs but everyone has UBI, that really sticks in my craw. You telling me that UBI is supplemental income tells me you don't get it. UBI is not supposed to be supplemental. It is supposed to make sure most people don't starve when there simply is no paid work to be found. These kinds of comments are crazy making. If it is supplemental, we don't need it. If it isn't supplemental, it doesn't work without also fixing healthcare and housing. I think we don't need it. We just need to fix healthcare and housing and restructure work. We need to do all that with or without UBI. I think without UBI, we will do a better job of fixing those things. With UBI, too many people think those problems don't really matter that much. Poor people can just move elsewhere or something.
- JDiculous 9y ago
  I'm totally with you on fixing affordable housing and healthcare, and that a UBI can only do so much without fixing those problems. I don't buy the idea that UBI will make it harder to solve those problems. I think UBI will make it easier to fix those problems because it would free up more peoples' time (especially the lower and middle class) to be politically active and fix these fundamental problems. Right now nothing is really improving because the wealthy who've bought out the politicians don't care, and the poor have no time or energy to protest because they're too busy working multiple jobs and worrying about whether or not they'll make rent next month. > You can't still work if all the big wigs with the power to create jobs are not bothering to make work available because you have your UBI. Jobs aren't some kind of charity case that companies offer to appease the financially desperate masses. Jobs are created when there's a need for labor, and they believe the revenue generated by the labor will offset the wages. UBI does not mean that companies go "well looks like the masses don't need our money anymore, we can finally take away these jobs". Businesses are there to maximize profit, and UBI doesn't change that. UBI however would massively increase the bargaining power of laborers by giving them the option to walk away. Wages of jobs that nobody wants to do but are services that we need would rise. We'd probably see more people opting to work less hours. The whole dynamic of interviews would change in favor of the laborer (as opposed to right now where the employer has the upper hand). Overall, it'd be a massive boon to labor.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    Currently, multiple tech giants are pro UBI. Sam Altman is constantly on the front page of HN talking about it. He is putting millions of his own money into UBI experiments. I am not aware of him doing anything about healthcare or affordable housing. Since he became president of YC, he has used it as a platform to promote various social agendas he is interested in. YC fosters the development of businesses. You cannot convince me that the focus of someone like that has no impact on the kind of world we are creating. I do not believe he in any way cares about the little people. I do not believe he has any interest in or willingness to open doors for poor people. His interest in UBI strikes me as a huge fuck you and quit your bitching to the little people. You need to be very leery of the motives of the architects of such a system. Currently, American welfare does an excellent job of trapping people in poverty. I have no idea why you are so strongly convinced that some new welfare scheme with a shiny new name won't continue that pattern. I have seen zero evidence that it will. Since healthcare and affordable housing both need to be fixed anyway, I would much prefer to see time and effort to into those things in the here and now rather than into all this talk of UBI. If both of those things get fixed first and people still think UBI is a good idea, I would be much more willing to support it at that point. But at this point in time, talk of UBI looks to me like a lazy concept if throwing money at the problems of poor people as if their problems are easily solved. This makes me extremely leery of both the idea itself and of the idea that people trying to spearhead the movement are at all qualified to do the heavy lifting involved in solving healthcare and affordable housing.

DoreenMichele 9y ago

You can't still work if all the big wigs with the power to create jobs are not bothering to make work available because you have your UBI. I have already laid out my solution: accessible healthcare, affordable housing and restructuring work. And the reason I hold the position I hold is because I was homeless. So I know what bs it is to say "You can just move someplace cheaper and supplement your income." I was both willing and able to do both of those things. It isn't the easy answer folks imagine. I owe a bunch of money from making the move. People who, themselves, make money online mostly shat all over me and wouldn't help me figure out how to make money online while saying things to me like I was panhandling the internet for trying to figure out how to earn money online etc. UBI will not give anyone the knowledge, skills and connections necessary to turn free time into income. What it will do is allow classist or sexist or racist assholes to be more comfortable with shutting out Those People from the paths to an earned income because, hey, you don't need me to give you an opportunity. You have your UBI. If we don't fix the affordable housing mess, UBI fixes nothing. There are lots of places where $10k is basically just rent for the year, with no money leftover for anything else. And if you think people can just move to the cheap seats, it is hard to find a place for under $500/mo. That leaves less than $500/mo to cover all other living expenses. I have lived on that kind of a budget. I have looked for housing on that kind of a budget. I know firsthand how hard it is to make that work. So when folks who likely have more income than me post imaginary stories about what a piece of cake life will be when there are no jobs but everyone has UBI, that really sticks in my craw. You telling me that UBI is supplemental income tells me you don't get it. UBI is not supposed to be supplemental. It is supposed to make sure most people don't starve when there simply is no paid work to be found. These kinds of comments are crazy making. If it is supplemental, we don't need it. If it isn't supplemental, it doesn't work without also fixing healthcare and housing. I think we don't need it. We just need to fix healthcare and housing and restructure work. We need to do all that with or without UBI. I think without UBI, we will do a better job of fixing those things. With UBI, too many people think those problems don't really matter that much. Poor people can just move elsewhere or something.

JDiculous 9y ago
I'm totally with you on fixing affordable housing and healthcare, and that a UBI can only do so much without fixing those problems. I don't buy the idea that UBI will make it harder to solve those problems. I think UBI will make it easier to fix those problems because it would free up more peoples' time (especially the lower and middle class) to be politically active and fix these fundamental problems. Right now nothing is really improving because the wealthy who've bought out the politicians don't care, and the poor have no time or energy to protest because they're too busy working multiple jobs and worrying about whether or not they'll make rent next month. > You can't still work if all the big wigs with the power to create jobs are not bothering to make work available because you have your UBI. Jobs aren't some kind of charity case that companies offer to appease the financially desperate masses. Jobs are created when there's a need for labor, and they believe the revenue generated by the labor will offset the wages. UBI does not mean that companies go "well looks like the masses don't need our money anymore, we can finally take away these jobs". Businesses are there to maximize profit, and UBI doesn't change that. UBI however would massively increase the bargaining power of laborers by giving them the option to walk away. Wages of jobs that nobody wants to do but are services that we need would rise. We'd probably see more people opting to work less hours. The whole dynamic of interviews would change in favor of the laborer (as opposed to right now where the employer has the upper hand). Overall, it'd be a massive boon to labor.
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  Currently, multiple tech giants are pro UBI. Sam Altman is constantly on the front page of HN talking about it. He is putting millions of his own money into UBI experiments. I am not aware of him doing anything about healthcare or affordable housing. Since he became president of YC, he has used it as a platform to promote various social agendas he is interested in. YC fosters the development of businesses. You cannot convince me that the focus of someone like that has no impact on the kind of world we are creating. I do not believe he in any way cares about the little people. I do not believe he has any interest in or willingness to open doors for poor people. His interest in UBI strikes me as a huge fuck you and quit your bitching to the little people. You need to be very leery of the motives of the architects of such a system. Currently, American welfare does an excellent job of trapping people in poverty. I have no idea why you are so strongly convinced that some new welfare scheme with a shiny new name won't continue that pattern. I have seen zero evidence that it will. Since healthcare and affordable housing both need to be fixed anyway, I would much prefer to see time and effort to into those things in the here and now rather than into all this talk of UBI. If both of those things get fixed first and people still think UBI is a good idea, I would be much more willing to support it at that point. But at this point in time, talk of UBI looks to me like a lazy concept if throwing money at the problems of poor people as if their problems are easily solved. This makes me extremely leery of both the idea itself and of the idea that people trying to spearhead the movement are at all qualified to do the heavy lifting involved in solving healthcare and affordable housing.