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I was discussing Seedcamp the other night.. the issue is (and here's why I think YC has it spot-on) at the micro-seed-funding stage (which it is, exactly like Y

by apexauk 19y ago

I was discussing Seedcamp the other night.. the issue is (and here's why I think YC has it spot-on) at the micro-seed-funding stage (which it is, exactly like YC) the most important thing is the idea/product/demo. Whereas YC has teams working flat-out under extreme pressure to actually produce something in so many weeks, Seedcamp was much more "let's cover all the bases..marketing, finance, biz-dev..". At the micro-seed level it should be at least 80% product/polishing the idea - this is what's most important to get to the next stage, after all!

langer 19y ago
@madmotive: I’ve got a lot of respect for the main goal of Seedcamp, namely to inspire the next generation of Europe’s serial entrepreneurs. However, I think apexauk’s points above hit the nail on the head — more focus on openly, iteratively and rapidly building a product than worrying too much about perfecting the business model. I too hope Seedcamp embraces these principles — and if they do, they’ve got a very good chance of achieving their goal.
- madmotive 19y ago
  Don't get me wrong. I too have a great deal of respect for the main goal of Seedcamp and the work that everyone involved is putting into it and other initiatives in Europe. But I also agree that focusing on the product at seed stage should be given a far higher priority than anything else. I think that Seedcamp not seeming to focus on the product, is a symptom of them suffering from too many cooks. These cooks probably start finding roles for themselves and end up pushing startups to put together all the elements required to build a complete restaurant rather than concentrating on perfecting a single dish. YC being directed by just a few smart, well connected people is probably better suited in it's structure to focusing on a single dish and bringing in other people only when they are really needed.
  - langer 19y ago
    sounds spot on to me :) so, next question.. almost warrants another thread, but i'll ask you it here for now: who are the best product guys in the UK/Europe? are they on the list of official "product expert" mentors? http://seedcamp.com/pages/mentors http://seedcamp.com/pages/mentors
    - madmotive 19y ago
      I'd guess that they probably are on that page somewhere, not necessarily in the "product expert" list. They just need to get themselves into an environment in which they can most effectively do their thing. I'm sure they were in it or close to it when they started their own startups. :)
  - apexauk 19y ago
    "These cooks probably start finding roles for themselves..." Nicely put! I agree.
flipbrad 19y ago
that's an easy comment to make that very much fits the zeitgeist, but some sort of cynicism is required. If we're wrong on this, and 'build it and the money will come' strategies fail, then we're definitely setting ourselves up for a boom+bust that's going to be painful for all. The cynicism is that, in addition to suiting startups that haven't got the intellectual capital required to think about a sustainable business strategy as they head into business, it also very much suits YC's approach (see below), which might explain why, as a meme, it's so pervasive! The YC-like approach could be caricatured as 'shotgun' - throw a load of startups at a wall (boost their launch) and see what sticks (in terms of adoption); but if the rest, which don't show immediate adoption, get neglected by YC-like investors-mentor hybrids too soon, they won't pick up the transferable business skills that would serve them for a lifetime. Putting your hands into a launch-focused incubator is risky, from the startup's perspective. YC, as first on the scene, has many 'value-added' factors (mainly PR-based) that make this risk worth taking; but copycats don't deliver these (e.g. a great network, great reputation with potential series A investors, media rep, etc). In that light, copycats may actually be more beneficial to the startup scene if they alter their strategy relative to YC to deliver different value-addeds, as Seedcamp does. Probably not worth pooh-pooing them without thinking a bit further, just in case we are letting a damaging meme spread too far without challenge. The key is to make sure both launch-drive and business training/mentorship are provided in equal amounts - the order in which they come can be debated, and is the nub of the seedcamp vs. YC debate; but let's make sure the complexity of what YC offers comes across - it's not just launch drive and that's not the only important thing in seed stage investment. Long term, that could be very damaging for YC copycats that don't have as clear an idea of what's needed
- langer 19y ago
  i agree with your point that it's v. important for the team to have the necessary transferable business skills early on. a group of introvert hackers who lack them could easily fail, even if they've built a relatively good product. nevertheless, my impression of YC is that even with an 80%+ focus on product, there's still time to pick up some good business knowledge reading blogs and speaking to the YC alumni who most certainly have strong business skills amongst them. in addition to this, surely the job of the seed investors (which can usually be attracted by a YC company who build a good product) is to give more of a commercial focus, and help the founders hire the right 'biz/marketing guys' later on? however, my experience of most of the 'hacker' founders on YC is that they've got more business skills than almost all of the young entrepreneurs i know in the UK!

by apexauk 19y ago

langer 19y ago

@madmotive: I’ve got a lot of respect for the main goal of Seedcamp, namely to inspire the next generation of Europe’s serial entrepreneurs. However, I think apexauk’s points above hit the nail on the head — more focus on openly, iteratively and rapidly building a product than worrying too much about perfecting the business model. I too hope Seedcamp embraces these principles — and if they do, they’ve got a very good chance of achieving their goal.

madmotive 19y ago
Don't get me wrong. I too have a great deal of respect for the main goal of Seedcamp and the work that everyone involved is putting into it and other initiatives in Europe. But I also agree that focusing on the product at seed stage should be given a far higher priority than anything else. I think that Seedcamp not seeming to focus on the product, is a symptom of them suffering from too many cooks. These cooks probably start finding roles for themselves and end up pushing startups to put together all the elements required to build a complete restaurant rather than concentrating on perfecting a single dish. YC being directed by just a few smart, well connected people is probably better suited in it's structure to focusing on a single dish and bringing in other people only when they are really needed.
- langer 19y ago
  sounds spot on to me :) so, next question.. almost warrants another thread, but i'll ask you it here for now: who are the best product guys in the UK/Europe? are they on the list of official "product expert" mentors? http://seedcamp.com/pages/mentors http://seedcamp.com/pages/mentors
  - madmotive 19y ago
    I'd guess that they probably are on that page somewhere, not necessarily in the "product expert" list. They just need to get themselves into an environment in which they can most effectively do their thing. I'm sure they were in it or close to it when they started their own startups. :)
- apexauk 19y ago
  "These cooks probably start finding roles for themselves..." Nicely put! I agree.

flipbrad 19y ago

that's an easy comment to make that very much fits the zeitgeist, but some sort of cynicism is required. If we're wrong on this, and 'build it and the money will come' strategies fail, then we're definitely setting ourselves up for a boom+bust that's going to be painful for all. The cynicism is that, in addition to suiting startups that haven't got the intellectual capital required to think about a sustainable business strategy as they head into business, it also very much suits YC's approach (see below), which might explain why, as a meme, it's so pervasive! The YC-like approach could be caricatured as 'shotgun' - throw a load of startups at a wall (boost their launch) and see what sticks (in terms of adoption); but if the rest, which don't show immediate adoption, get neglected by YC-like investors-mentor hybrids too soon, they won't pick up the transferable business skills that would serve them for a lifetime. Putting your hands into a launch-focused incubator is risky, from the startup's perspective. YC, as first on the scene, has many 'value-added' factors (mainly PR-based) that make this risk worth taking; but copycats don't deliver these (e.g. a great network, great reputation with potential series A investors, media rep, etc). In that light, copycats may actually be more beneficial to the startup scene if they alter their strategy relative to YC to deliver different value-addeds, as Seedcamp does. Probably not worth pooh-pooing them without thinking a bit further, just in case we are letting a damaging meme spread too far without challenge. The key is to make sure both launch-drive and business training/mentorship are provided in equal amounts - the order in which they come can be debated, and is the nub of the seedcamp vs. YC debate; but let's make sure the complexity of what YC offers comes across - it's not just launch drive and that's not the only important thing in seed stage investment. Long term, that could be very damaging for YC copycats that don't have as clear an idea of what's needed

langer 19y ago
i agree with your point that it's v. important for the team to have the necessary transferable business skills early on. a group of introvert hackers who lack them could easily fail, even if they've built a relatively good product. nevertheless, my impression of YC is that even with an 80%+ focus on product, there's still time to pick up some good business knowledge reading blogs and speaking to the YC alumni who most certainly have strong business skills amongst them. in addition to this, surely the job of the seed investors (which can usually be attracted by a YC company who build a good product) is to give more of a commercial focus, and help the founders hire the right 'biz/marketing guys' later on? however, my experience of most of the 'hacker' founders on YC is that they've got more business skills than almost all of the young entrepreneurs i know in the UK!