5 ms·

this trope about how much things cost in the US vs other countries never dies. Things are not free in Spain, they are paid for by heavy taxation, which then re

this trope about how much things cost in the US vs other countries never dies. Things are not free in Spain, they are paid for by heavy taxation, which then results in a massive unemployment rate of 17% AND a lower birth rate than US.

alkonaut 9y ago
So cherrypick any other country with a working universal healthcare system and lower unemployment rate. You can almost pick any tax rate too, and there’s a country with that.
- vasilipupkin 9y ago
  So, why don't you do if then? Which country has lower unemployment rate and higher birth rate than US where taxation is low ? Can you name one ? I love the downvotes. I make a factual statement that Spain, which is referenced in the article, has higher tax burden, a 17% unemployment rate and a lower birth rate than US and they freak out.
  - alkonaut 9y ago
    Almost all other modern democracies (e.g OECD) have universal healthcare. Almost all have lower unemployment rates than Spain (if not all). Taxation varies. Was my point. Those that have the healthcare as a public insurance on the side of taxes can have low taxes. Those with tax funded single payer obviously have higher taxes. My example of choice of low-ish taxes, high birth rate and universal healthcare would be Ireland. There are others.
    - vasilipupkin 9y ago
      You are missing the point. Yes, countries have lots of benefits, what I am having issue with is the claim those benefits are cheaper. No, they are paid for in different ways. There aren't any others. US has a lower tax burden than almost all OECD countries except for Ireland. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes... Technically, Ireland fails my test because it has a higher unemployment rate than US. Safe to say, Ireland is an exception due to being probably most catholic country in the western world, which keeps birth rate high My specific test is, find me a developed country with lower unemployment rate, lower taxes and higher birth rate than US. There isn't one. And that's how those benefits are paid for
      - alkonaut 9y ago
        Whether single payer or other universal systems are “cheaper” is one question. The US system isn’t the only way of having a private system, and there are reasons for it being expensive other than it being market based (monopolies, legal reasons etc). While it’s hard to say why US healthcare is more expensive, it’s at least pretty easy to say that other systems aren’t like the US, and are cheaper. They are paid for in different ways (e.g taxes, fees,...), correct. And those costs are lower. Naturally countries with tax funded healthcare have higher taxes. An apples-to-apples comparison is of course between tax+healthcare in both countries. Third: unemployment rate. This is also locally dependent on what full employment is, which depends on, for example, unemployment benefits etc. 6% unemployment in Sweden is pretty good, but would be terrible in the US. So percentages are not directly comparable. (For example 6% in Ireland is comparably lower unemployment than the current 4% in the US in a fair comparison as Ireland’s full employment rate is 5% - They are at full+1%) As such, finding countries which have lower taxes despite including healthcare and lower unemployment despite perhaps having 80% unemployment benefits isn’t just impossible it’s a pretty useless comparison to begin with. To make a fair comparison you have to correct for local factors: taxes excluding healthcare, and unemployment as difference from full employment (to begin with).
        vasilipupkin 9y ago
        it's not a useless comparison. In aggregate, US has one of the lowest tax burdens in OECD. So, in countries where you have lots of benefits, those benefits are paid for with higher taxes !!! so, to say, that in aggregate those benefits cost less is simply inaccurate. You have to correctly account for the costs.
        alkonaut 9y ago
        Yes. And healthcare costs are lower in nearly every way you measure: individual procedures, cost per individual per year etc. That Americans (and their employers) pay more than others pay for healthcare through taxes isn’t just widely known it’s also by a pretty wide margin. So yes benefits are paid for by taxes. And the question is: does that make it cheaper?

alkonaut 9y ago

So cherrypick any other country with a working universal healthcare system and lower unemployment rate. You can almost pick any tax rate too, and there’s a country with that.

vasilipupkin 9y ago
So, why don't you do if then? Which country has lower unemployment rate and higher birth rate than US where taxation is low ? Can you name one ? I love the downvotes. I make a factual statement that Spain, which is referenced in the article, has higher tax burden, a 17% unemployment rate and a lower birth rate than US and they freak out.
- alkonaut 9y ago
  Almost all other modern democracies (e.g OECD) have universal healthcare. Almost all have lower unemployment rates than Spain (if not all). Taxation varies. Was my point. Those that have the healthcare as a public insurance on the side of taxes can have low taxes. Those with tax funded single payer obviously have higher taxes. My example of choice of low-ish taxes, high birth rate and universal healthcare would be Ireland. There are others.
  - vasilipupkin 9y ago
    You are missing the point. Yes, countries have lots of benefits, what I am having issue with is the claim those benefits are cheaper. No, they are paid for in different ways. There aren't any others. US has a lower tax burden than almost all OECD countries except for Ireland. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes... Technically, Ireland fails my test because it has a higher unemployment rate than US. Safe to say, Ireland is an exception due to being probably most catholic country in the western world, which keeps birth rate high My specific test is, find me a developed country with lower unemployment rate, lower taxes and higher birth rate than US. There isn't one. And that's how those benefits are paid for
    - alkonaut 9y ago
      Whether single payer or other universal systems are “cheaper” is one question. The US system isn’t the only way of having a private system, and there are reasons for it being expensive other than it being market based (monopolies, legal reasons etc). While it’s hard to say why US healthcare is more expensive, it’s at least pretty easy to say that other systems aren’t like the US, and are cheaper. They are paid for in different ways (e.g taxes, fees,...), correct. And those costs are lower. Naturally countries with tax funded healthcare have higher taxes. An apples-to-apples comparison is of course between tax+healthcare in both countries. Third: unemployment rate. This is also locally dependent on what full employment is, which depends on, for example, unemployment benefits etc. 6% unemployment in Sweden is pretty good, but would be terrible in the US. So percentages are not directly comparable. (For example 6% in Ireland is comparably lower unemployment than the current 4% in the US in a fair comparison as Ireland’s full employment rate is 5% - They are at full+1%) As such, finding countries which have lower taxes despite including healthcare and lower unemployment despite perhaps having 80% unemployment benefits isn’t just impossible it’s a pretty useless comparison to begin with. To make a fair comparison you have to correct for local factors: taxes excluding healthcare, and unemployment as difference from full employment (to begin with).
      - vasilipupkin 9y ago
        it's not a useless comparison. In aggregate, US has one of the lowest tax burdens in OECD. So, in countries where you have lots of benefits, those benefits are paid for with higher taxes !!! so, to say, that in aggregate those benefits cost less is simply inaccurate. You have to correctly account for the costs.
        alkonaut 9y ago
        Yes. And healthcare costs are lower in nearly every way you measure: individual procedures, cost per individual per year etc. That Americans (and their employers) pay more than others pay for healthcare through taxes isn’t just widely known it’s also by a pretty wide margin. So yes benefits are paid for by taxes. And the question is: does that make it cheaper?