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My personal issue with unions is I've seen the way my family members work places have acted through the fact that collective bargaining has given them the abili

My personal issue with unions is I've seen the way my family members work places have acted through the fact that collective bargaining has given them the ability to leverage things such as years served as a way to dictate many aspects of how the organization is run. Additionally, it is very hard to fire people, where people can coast for years and still continue to get raises and even promotions. Additionally, unions force costs to go up on many projects and revert any productivity gains that technology has provided. This prevents projects from getting done reducing the GDP impact of the larger industry even though certain people would likely get paid less. Yes, for labor jobs, unions are absolutely necessary, but from my perspective collective bargaining presents many failures when it comes to coordinating large projects across multiple union groups, in addition to demoralizing high performers as unions as of right now have not adopted well to any sort of up or out promotion structure.

pfranz 9y ago
> Additionally, unions force costs to go up on many projects and revert any productivity gains that technology has provided. Honestly, I think this is worth some honest discussion about the big picture. Many of the critiques against neoliberalism[1] is that all of the benefits of opening international trade and automation have gone to the rich. In 1930 John Keynes predicted 15 hour workweek for his grandchildren[2]. The average workweek in the U.S. is 47-49 hours[3]. This is in a world where dual incomes is common. I'm not advocating paying people to sit around all day, but I think it would be good to look at what we're trading work/life balance, job security, income, life expectancy, age of retirement, and the other things we give up for it. Personally, I still like the current world of iPhones and Amazon delivery, so it's not a clear argument in one direction, but it's not something I hear people talk about. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism#Focus_on_economic_efficiency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism#Focus_on_economi... [2] http://www.businessinsider.com/john-keynes-predicted-15-hours-workweek-2015-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/john-keynes-predicted-15-hour... [3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2014/09/02/the-average-work-week-is-now-47-hours/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2014/09...
- jokola 9y ago
  There are of course other ways to see things e.g. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/08/sweden-social-democracy-meidner-plan-capital https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/08/sweden-social-democracy-m...
- losteverything 9y ago
  Examine amazon. I deliver them. Im in a union. I've had a $100+k prosthetic at <$4k out of pocket. Pooled healthcare. Savings is matched and now i have $100k waiting and i did nothing. I have safe conditions to deliver. I get paid if im sick. I have a predictable schedule Now, if i downloaded the Amazon app and became a delivery dude i would still deliver Amazon. No insurance No savings. Use of my own car. I could do this for amazon for 5 years and i would have nothing. The union already blazed the way for my salary and benefit package.. So i simply benefited from it. Amazon and uber workers and drivers have so untapped clout..
noobermin 9y ago
>Additionally, unions force costs to go up on many projects and revert any productivity gains that technology has provided. Perhaps at individual companies, but the overall trend is pay has not kept pace with productivity gains, so the overall trend across society is the reverse of what you're worrying about.
- zjaffee 9y ago
  The productivity in certain aspects of construction and many government services has in fact gone down in recent years. Sure society wide, we have seen massive productivity gains, and unionization with the only purpose of capturing these gains back to the workers would be one thing, but to force them to fall without anything new added to the table is problematic.

pfranz 9y ago

> Additionally, unions force costs to go up on many projects and revert any productivity gains that technology has provided. Honestly, I think this is worth some honest discussion about the big picture. Many of the critiques against neoliberalism[1] is that all of the benefits of opening international trade and automation have gone to the rich. In 1930 John Keynes predicted 15 hour workweek for his grandchildren[2]. The average workweek in the U.S. is 47-49 hours[3]. This is in a world where dual incomes is common. I'm not advocating paying people to sit around all day, but I think it would be good to look at what we're trading work/life balance, job security, income, life expectancy, age of retirement, and the other things we give up for it. Personally, I still like the current world of iPhones and Amazon delivery, so it's not a clear argument in one direction, but it's not something I hear people talk about. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism#Focus_on_economic_efficiency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism#Focus_on_economi... [2] http://www.businessinsider.com/john-keynes-predicted-15-hours-workweek-2015-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/john-keynes-predicted-15-hour... [3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2014/09/02/the-average-work-week-is-now-47-hours/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2014/09...

jokola 9y ago
There are of course other ways to see things e.g. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/08/sweden-social-democracy-meidner-plan-capital https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/08/sweden-social-democracy-m...
losteverything 9y ago
Examine amazon. I deliver them. Im in a union. I've had a $100+k prosthetic at <$4k out of pocket. Pooled healthcare. Savings is matched and now i have $100k waiting and i did nothing. I have safe conditions to deliver. I get paid if im sick. I have a predictable schedule Now, if i downloaded the Amazon app and became a delivery dude i would still deliver Amazon. No insurance No savings. Use of my own car. I could do this for amazon for 5 years and i would have nothing. The union already blazed the way for my salary and benefit package.. So i simply benefited from it. Amazon and uber workers and drivers have so untapped clout..

noobermin 9y ago

>Additionally, unions force costs to go up on many projects and revert any productivity gains that technology has provided. Perhaps at individual companies, but the overall trend is pay has not kept pace with productivity gains, so the overall trend across society is the reverse of what you're worrying about.

zjaffee 9y ago
The productivity in certain aspects of construction and many government services has in fact gone down in recent years. Sure society wide, we have seen massive productivity gains, and unionization with the only purpose of capturing these gains back to the workers would be one thing, but to force them to fall without anything new added to the table is problematic.