3 ms·

"Otherwise workers - even professionals- have no true security, no true predictable work conditions." How do you shore this up the the fact that many of us eng

by stale2002 9y ago

"Otherwise workers - even professionals- have no true security, no true predictable work conditions." How do you shore this up the the fact that many of us engineers have pretty freaking awesome, high paying jobs? Things have seemed to work out great for those of us who are willing and able to negotiate well for ourselves. Thats the problem I have with unions. I do not for a single second want someone else to be negotiating for me. I can do that on my own, and I have done well for myself using my own negotiation power.

bmelton 9y ago
Every time there's an article about unionization (here, yes, but anywhere else too), there's someone in that article extolling the virtues of all unions, followed up by others denigrating the state of unions. As a younger man, I've been a member of unions that were good, and unions that were bad, and while I don't remotely proclaim myself to be an expert on them, but I am experienced enough to have observed what I believe are patterns. Ideally, unions aim to solve power imbalance between workers and employers, which it does by giving power to a presumably disadvantaged party. Where the employees are already in demand, or are highly skilled, what have you, employers already have to work hard to maintain the employee base it has because replacement employees are difficult to find. Where the employees are less skilled, or more easily replaceable, unions can be super effective at raising workplace standards and wage negotiations. That said, I'm wary of anyone who speaks in absolutes to either end. Some unions arrive at too much power, and can be self-defeating or exploitative. Some unions are corrupt. Some unions don't work very hard for their members. Some unions are horrible, and then turn it around, and vice versa. Unions can be effective at raising wage floors, but can also lower ceilings for workers who might be best off without them. The assertion that any given union is de facto good or bad seems flawed to me, as I've seen both sides of that particular coin, and like all eco-systems, work very well when a particular set of conditions are met and a particular balance is struck.
- DrScump 9y ago
  "Where the employees are less skilled, or more easily replaceable, unions can be super effective at raising workplace standards and wage negotiations." The presence of a union can also make the difference in management resorting to close/offshore the operation altogether.
pfooti 9y ago
Consider a few ways engineers could have things Even Better: Less / No crunch time. Ethical support so you can refuse to do something shady. Support for union members getting equal pay and equal treatment, despite marginalized status. Job security for people over 50. Those are just off the top of my head. And yes, I get that not all of those things are delivered by all unions. But ultimately, there is a lot to be gained from banding together and cooperating, which cannot be negotiated singly.
- majormajor 9y ago
  A professional association with ethics standards you could quote to say "no I won't build your creepy backdoor/logging/privacy-invading tracking feature, it's against the code" would be pretty sweet...
  - chemeng 9y ago
    Professional Engineer certification exists for software engineering and requires testing on and then swearing to a code of ethics. Though the code of ethics you swear to doesn't cleanly apply to the challenge you present, I've often thought more SWEs being professionally certified and bringing the ethics and standards to their field would bring benefits on many fronts. It's easy to see when designing reactors, or building bridges that your work and decisions can directly impact human welfare and correspondingly I have seen a very high standard of attention to detail, standards compliance and ethics in those fields. When designing software systems and applications it's harder for some to see, but the potential impact is still present.
tinokid 9y ago
>Things have seemed to work out great for those of us who are willing and able to negotiate well for ourselves. Yeah, but companies are also really good at making people think they are getting a great deal when they aren't. There was a thread a few years ago where someone posted a police agency's salary database disclosure and the comments were along the lines of "zomg some random guy I knew in high school makes way more than me". Not to contradict the poster who claims that unions can become parasitical--both on employers/taxpayers and on newer members--but in the end which benny is more valuable: free meals, or a fully COLA'ed pension that's still paying out when you're 80?

bmelton 9y ago

Every time there's an article about unionization (here, yes, but anywhere else too), there's someone in that article extolling the virtues of all unions, followed up by others denigrating the state of unions. As a younger man, I've been a member of unions that were good, and unions that were bad, and while I don't remotely proclaim myself to be an expert on them, but I am experienced enough to have observed what I believe are patterns. Ideally, unions aim to solve power imbalance between workers and employers, which it does by giving power to a presumably disadvantaged party. Where the employees are already in demand, or are highly skilled, what have you, employers already have to work hard to maintain the employee base it has because replacement employees are difficult to find. Where the employees are less skilled, or more easily replaceable, unions can be super effective at raising workplace standards and wage negotiations. That said, I'm wary of anyone who speaks in absolutes to either end. Some unions arrive at too much power, and can be self-defeating or exploitative. Some unions are corrupt. Some unions don't work very hard for their members. Some unions are horrible, and then turn it around, and vice versa. Unions can be effective at raising wage floors, but can also lower ceilings for workers who might be best off without them. The assertion that any given union is de facto good or bad seems flawed to me, as I've seen both sides of that particular coin, and like all eco-systems, work very well when a particular set of conditions are met and a particular balance is struck.

DrScump 9y ago
"Where the employees are less skilled, or more easily replaceable, unions can be super effective at raising workplace standards and wage negotiations." The presence of a union can also make the difference in management resorting to close/offshore the operation altogether.

pfooti 9y ago

Consider a few ways engineers could have things Even Better: Less / No crunch time. Ethical support so you can refuse to do something shady. Support for union members getting equal pay and equal treatment, despite marginalized status. Job security for people over 50. Those are just off the top of my head. And yes, I get that not all of those things are delivered by all unions. But ultimately, there is a lot to be gained from banding together and cooperating, which cannot be negotiated singly.

majormajor 9y ago
A professional association with ethics standards you could quote to say "no I won't build your creepy backdoor/logging/privacy-invading tracking feature, it's against the code" would be pretty sweet...
- chemeng 9y ago
  Professional Engineer certification exists for software engineering and requires testing on and then swearing to a code of ethics. Though the code of ethics you swear to doesn't cleanly apply to the challenge you present, I've often thought more SWEs being professionally certified and bringing the ethics and standards to their field would bring benefits on many fronts. It's easy to see when designing reactors, or building bridges that your work and decisions can directly impact human welfare and correspondingly I have seen a very high standard of attention to detail, standards compliance and ethics in those fields. When designing software systems and applications it's harder for some to see, but the potential impact is still present.

tinokid 9y ago

>Things have seemed to work out great for those of us who are willing and able to negotiate well for ourselves. Yeah, but companies are also really good at making people think they are getting a great deal when they aren't. There was a thread a few years ago where someone posted a police agency's salary database disclosure and the comments were along the lines of "zomg some random guy I knew in high school makes way more than me". Not to contradict the poster who claims that unions can become parasitical--both on employers/taxpayers and on newer members--but in the end which benny is more valuable: free meals, or a fully COLA'ed pension that's still paying out when you're 80?