5 ms·

> Maybe it's possible that the people actually doing the work know better about how to run a successful media company than the Troncs do? Why don't they start

> Maybe it's possible that the people actually doing the work know better about how to run a successful media company than the Troncs do? Why don't they start their own media company then rather than resort to short-term value extraction tactics which will likely drive said "cathedral of journalism" into the ground?

tptacek 9y ago
It wasn't the reporters that Tronc'd The Tribune Corporation; it was owners that did that. Why am I required to accept the premise that it's labor that's pathologically short-termist, and not management? I reject that premise.
- jamiequint 9y ago
  Unions (aka parasites) have a rich history of running their hosts into the ground. Just look at Detroit pensions, or any of the hundreds of municipalities that got fucked by Police/Fire pensions in the subprime crisis (e.g. Vallejo), or the fact that there are bus/train drivers in SF that make $100k+/year. Unions are responsible for running things into the ground far more often than management is. (or they just create the conditions for it then blame management of course)
  - tptacek 9y ago
    Who are you going to persuade with rhetoric like that? I don't even disagree with the point you're making about public-sector unions, which I too have misgivings about, but I feel repulsed by the way you've chosen to make that point --- which has little to do with what I'm saying.
    - jamiequint 9y ago
      It’s a good thing I’m talking to random people on the internet and not doing union negotiations.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
  - dandersh 9y ago
    What you're describing is the fault of those managing the pensions, specifically that they continually underfunded them while expecting unrealistically high returns. Detroit? You mean when the city that was in bankruptcy due to a multitude of reasons (decades of mismanagement at both the local and state level, decline of auto sector, white flight, etc.)[0], and the "parasites" as you call them that agreed to a cut in their benefits that was pivotal to the bankruptcy going through?[1] I'd say that example (along with your language) makes it clear there's more ideology than fact involved in your argument... [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Detroit#Contributors_to_decline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Detroit#Contributor... [1]http://michiganradio.org/post/detroit-bankruptcy-lesson-underfunded-pension-funds-could-trip-other-municipalities http://michiganradio.org/post/detroit-bankruptcy-lesson-unde...
  - tomjakubowski 9y ago
    > or the fact that there are bus/train drivers in SF that make $100k+/year. This is only maybe true in the sense that there probably are some senior-level transit operators who make that much, but the median BART train operator gets $30.58/hr. SF MTA bus drivers are somewhere around $23/hr. That hardly seems excessive or crazy to me.
    - DrScump 9y ago
      That BART figure ignores very generous benefits[0]. I'd like to see your source for calling that the "median" wage (as opposed to the starting wage). Santa Clara County VTA benefits are even more generous. "Just down the road, Amalgamated Transit Union employees of the Santa Clara Valley Transit Authority pay a flat $35 a month for health care and nothing toward their pension."[0] [0] http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/BART-workers-pay-plus-benefits-among-top-in-U-S-4723315.php http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/BART-workers-pay-plus-...

tptacek 9y ago

It wasn't the reporters that Tronc'd The Tribune Corporation; it was owners that did that. Why am I required to accept the premise that it's labor that's pathologically short-termist, and not management? I reject that premise.

jamiequint 9y ago
Unions (aka parasites) have a rich history of running their hosts into the ground. Just look at Detroit pensions, or any of the hundreds of municipalities that got fucked by Police/Fire pensions in the subprime crisis (e.g. Vallejo), or the fact that there are bus/train drivers in SF that make $100k+/year. Unions are responsible for running things into the ground far more often than management is. (or they just create the conditions for it then blame management of course)
- tptacek 9y ago
  Who are you going to persuade with rhetoric like that? I don't even disagree with the point you're making about public-sector unions, which I too have misgivings about, but I feel repulsed by the way you've chosen to make that point --- which has little to do with what I'm saying.
  - jamiequint 9y ago
    It’s a good thing I’m talking to random people on the internet and not doing union negotiations.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- dandersh 9y ago
  What you're describing is the fault of those managing the pensions, specifically that they continually underfunded them while expecting unrealistically high returns. Detroit? You mean when the city that was in bankruptcy due to a multitude of reasons (decades of mismanagement at both the local and state level, decline of auto sector, white flight, etc.)[0], and the "parasites" as you call them that agreed to a cut in their benefits that was pivotal to the bankruptcy going through?[1] I'd say that example (along with your language) makes it clear there's more ideology than fact involved in your argument... [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Detroit#Contributors_to_decline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Detroit#Contributor... [1]http://michiganradio.org/post/detroit-bankruptcy-lesson-underfunded-pension-funds-could-trip-other-municipalities http://michiganradio.org/post/detroit-bankruptcy-lesson-unde...
- tomjakubowski 9y ago
  > or the fact that there are bus/train drivers in SF that make $100k+/year. This is only maybe true in the sense that there probably are some senior-level transit operators who make that much, but the median BART train operator gets $30.58/hr. SF MTA bus drivers are somewhere around $23/hr. That hardly seems excessive or crazy to me.
  - DrScump 9y ago
    That BART figure ignores very generous benefits[0]. I'd like to see your source for calling that the "median" wage (as opposed to the starting wage). Santa Clara County VTA benefits are even more generous. "Just down the road, Amalgamated Transit Union employees of the Santa Clara Valley Transit Authority pay a flat $35 a month for health care and nothing toward their pension."[0] [0] http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/BART-workers-pay-plus-benefits-among-top-in-U-S-4723315.php http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/BART-workers-pay-plus-...