5 ms·

The older tiers of this list seem to be heavily dominated by Japan, Germany, and Switzerland. Is that reflective of something other than the demographics of no

The older tiers of this list seem to be heavily dominated by Japan, Germany, and Switzerland. Is that reflective of something other than the demographics of non-"New World" contributors to Wikipedia?

linopolus 9y ago
The US were founded in 1787, Columbus reached America in 1492, so how do you expect to find companies there older than that?
- Kluny 9y ago
  There were people in America before Columbus got there. I guess it's a safe bet though, that even if they had companies, they didn't survive.
  - shmerl 9y ago
    More likely, they didn't think in the terms of companies to begin with.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- twobyfour 9y ago
  Right, obviously they're not going to be in the New World. The question is why those countries, of all the ones in the Old World? There's very little in France, the UK, Norway, Albania, India, Syria, and a heck of a lot of other places with thousands of years of history.
  - davidw 9y ago
    Relative stability, and good written records are probably a reasonable part of the answer.
    - twobyfour 9y ago
      Switzerland and Japan, maybe. What is now Germany was not particularly stable during the Middle Ages. Or the Early Modern era. Or the 20th Century for that matter.
      - davidw 9y ago
        Yeah; it's a relatively large place though, so maybe some of the companies were in areas that didn't get quite so beat up in various wars?
        twobyfour 9y ago
        Maybe. But then why would there be more in Germany than, say, the U.K.? Or Italy?
        philipwhiuk 9y ago
        The UK has never seen pubs as being worthy of preservation until more recently. If you look at the list that's what survives centuries. We'd do quite well if the list was 'stately homes'.
  - philipwhiuk 9y ago
    > France Two total wars (WW1 and WW2, plus numerous other invasions and revolutions). > the UK, has 10 of the list, not sure how many you're expecting > Norway, Population only 5 million. Considerable famine in 1690s. > Albania Italian occupation in WW2. > India British occupation > Syria French then British occupation, then Ba'ath, with coups. > and a heck of a lot of other places with thousands of years of history. Mostly lots of invasions. Britain hasn't been invaded since 1066. Japan has had plenty of wars but no serious land occupation since the Mongols.
    - twobyfour 9y ago
      But by that logic, Germany makes zero sense.
niftich 9y ago
It's affected by several factors. Survivor bias, most prominently. "To be listed, a brand or company name must remain operating, either in whole or in part, since inception." Surviving was helped by continuity of social structures: Japan and Switzerland have seen very little external upheaval, while Germany's contemporary territory, despite unable to claim the same, has also seen a strong adherence to local institutions throughout. These companies tend to be, disproportionately, small, local affairs, so a tight-knit group of people was able to sustain them throughout generations as borders were being redrawn on the macro level. In places where warfare and demographic change led to the movement or fall of entire populations, the continuity of such institutions was put at risk. As a related factor, survival of documentation and the quality and continuity of recordkeeping also plays into this list.
pjc50 9y ago
Surviving these millenia requires avoiding the situations where businesses are mass-confiscated or the population is destroyed by disaster. So: - not being colonised (rules out New World, Africa, middle east, India) - not going through Communism or one of the less business friendly dictatorships (rules out Eastern Europe, Russia, China etc)
- Cyberdog 9y ago
  World War II certainly counted as a disaster in both Germany and Japan's case, and both countries had more localized civil strife throughout the millennia as well. That's not to disprove your point, I suppose, but perhaps to make the perseverance of those companies all the more fascinating.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    Yes, but in both cases the Allies went in without looting intentions and some intent to maintain as much of the surviving society as could be de-Nazified. Very rare in history. (This is not to say that looting didn't happen; the V2 rocket programme was explicitly looted, for example)
lucozade 9y ago
Japan's dominance is likely to be heavily influenced by the fact that families could adopt adults to continue running the business. This would have helped substantially to keep family run businesses running competently much longer than their equivalents in countries where that wasn't the tradition. That's probably not sufficient to explain 50 generation (!?) but could very well explain 20 or so. Germany, Austria and the UK, mostly seem to be breweries and inns/pubs. I'd speculate that some of this is likely to be monastery or abbey run so, again, it's not as family dependent as most businesses would have been. Also, if you find a popular spot for serving beer in one of those countries, say near a major market, you'd be getting punters for generations. Switzerland's a bit less obvious. Possibly it's to do with its stability and conservativism?
jdietrich 9y ago
It's mostly about continuity of records and property rights. Most countries a) didn't have written records of ownership until relatively recently, b) had a collapse of government that led to the loss of records or c) had a revolution that involved mass confiscation or redistribution of property. Japan, Germany and Switzerland have been efficient bureaucracies since time immemorial. They've had brief periods of trauma, but they haven't experienced an upheaval with the profound and lasting impact of something like the Russian revolution, the Great Leap Forward or the British Raj. They are also cultures that highly value economic stability and family ownership, although I think this is a secondary factor. I have no doubt that there are huge numbers of family-owned businesses that would be on this list, but for the fact that no records exist to demonstrate their age.

The older tiers of this list seem to be heavily dominated by Japan, Germany, and Switzerland. Is that reflective of something other than the demographics of non-"New World" contributors to Wikipedia?

linopolus 9y ago

The US were founded in 1787, Columbus reached America in 1492, so how do you expect to find companies there older than that?

Kluny 9y ago
There were people in America before Columbus got there. I guess it's a safe bet though, that even if they had companies, they didn't survive.
- shmerl 9y ago
  More likely, they didn't think in the terms of companies to begin with.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
twobyfour 9y ago
Right, obviously they're not going to be in the New World. The question is why those countries, of all the ones in the Old World? There's very little in France, the UK, Norway, Albania, India, Syria, and a heck of a lot of other places with thousands of years of history.
- davidw 9y ago
  Relative stability, and good written records are probably a reasonable part of the answer.
  - twobyfour 9y ago
    Switzerland and Japan, maybe. What is now Germany was not particularly stable during the Middle Ages. Or the Early Modern era. Or the 20th Century for that matter.
    - davidw 9y ago
      Yeah; it's a relatively large place though, so maybe some of the companies were in areas that didn't get quite so beat up in various wars?
      - twobyfour 9y ago
        Maybe. But then why would there be more in Germany than, say, the U.K.? Or Italy?
        philipwhiuk 9y ago
        The UK has never seen pubs as being worthy of preservation until more recently. If you look at the list that's what survives centuries. We'd do quite well if the list was 'stately homes'.
- philipwhiuk 9y ago
  > France Two total wars (WW1 and WW2, plus numerous other invasions and revolutions). > the UK, has 10 of the list, not sure how many you're expecting > Norway, Population only 5 million. Considerable famine in 1690s. > Albania Italian occupation in WW2. > India British occupation > Syria French then British occupation, then Ba'ath, with coups. > and a heck of a lot of other places with thousands of years of history. Mostly lots of invasions. Britain hasn't been invaded since 1066. Japan has had plenty of wars but no serious land occupation since the Mongols.
  - twobyfour 9y ago
    But by that logic, Germany makes zero sense.

niftich 9y ago

It's affected by several factors. Survivor bias, most prominently. "To be listed, a brand or company name must remain operating, either in whole or in part, since inception." Surviving was helped by continuity of social structures: Japan and Switzerland have seen very little external upheaval, while Germany's contemporary territory, despite unable to claim the same, has also seen a strong adherence to local institutions throughout. These companies tend to be, disproportionately, small, local affairs, so a tight-knit group of people was able to sustain them throughout generations as borders were being redrawn on the macro level. In places where warfare and demographic change led to the movement or fall of entire populations, the continuity of such institutions was put at risk. As a related factor, survival of documentation and the quality and continuity of recordkeeping also plays into this list.

pjc50 9y ago

Surviving these millenia requires avoiding the situations where businesses are mass-confiscated or the population is destroyed by disaster. So: - not being colonised (rules out New World, Africa, middle east, India) - not going through Communism or one of the less business friendly dictatorships (rules out Eastern Europe, Russia, China etc)

Cyberdog 9y ago
World War II certainly counted as a disaster in both Germany and Japan's case, and both countries had more localized civil strife throughout the millennia as well. That's not to disprove your point, I suppose, but perhaps to make the perseverance of those companies all the more fascinating.
- pjc50 9y ago
  Yes, but in both cases the Allies went in without looting intentions and some intent to maintain as much of the surviving society as could be de-Nazified. Very rare in history. (This is not to say that looting didn't happen; the V2 rocket programme was explicitly looted, for example)

lucozade 9y ago

Japan's dominance is likely to be heavily influenced by the fact that families could adopt adults to continue running the business. This would have helped substantially to keep family run businesses running competently much longer than their equivalents in countries where that wasn't the tradition. That's probably not sufficient to explain 50 generation (!?) but could very well explain 20 or so. Germany, Austria and the UK, mostly seem to be breweries and inns/pubs. I'd speculate that some of this is likely to be monastery or abbey run so, again, it's not as family dependent as most businesses would have been. Also, if you find a popular spot for serving beer in one of those countries, say near a major market, you'd be getting punters for generations. Switzerland's a bit less obvious. Possibly it's to do with its stability and conservativism?

jdietrich 9y ago

It's mostly about continuity of records and property rights. Most countries a) didn't have written records of ownership until relatively recently, b) had a collapse of government that led to the loss of records or c) had a revolution that involved mass confiscation or redistribution of property. Japan, Germany and Switzerland have been efficient bureaucracies since time immemorial. They've had brief periods of trauma, but they haven't experienced an upheaval with the profound and lasting impact of something like the Russian revolution, the Great Leap Forward or the British Raj. They are also cultures that highly value economic stability and family ownership, although I think this is a secondary factor. I have no doubt that there are huge numbers of family-owned businesses that would be on this list, but for the fact that no records exist to demonstrate their age.