7 ms·

a friend was once visiting me in manhattan and decided to drive. He came over on the george washington bridge ($15 toll), missed his turn to my block and ended

a friend was once visiting me in manhattan and decided to drive. He came over on the george washington bridge ($15 toll), missed his turn to my block and ended up getting turned around and going over to brooklyn (tunnel, of course: $8.50 toll), realized he was in the wrong place and turned around ($8.50 back through the tunnel). This, of course, was after driving up from Virginia via I-95, which has its own $20+ worth of tolls along the route. -- Where I live now, in Atlanta, we recently closed a $0.50 toll (GA400) because apparently we didn't need the money.

lotsofpulp 9y ago
Freezing temperatures, salt, underground infrastructure, and large amounts of traffic increase costs tremendously. Additionally, sometimes the infrastructure cannot handle the demand, therefore demand has to be reduced, and the easiest (and maybe most optimal way for society) is to implement tolls.
- jimmaswell 9y ago
  Large amounts of traffic means more tolls collected. They could get by fine on a normal toll amount. $15 is indefensible. Why is the answer "screw the poor"?
  - ethbro 9y ago
    $15 isn't indefensible if the project is solely or mostly funded with tolls (and therefore not out of state / city budget). But as to toll (flat) vs tax (progressive), you're right: it's definitely screwing over the poor. I'm all in favor of usage based charging, but "unaffordable to live near work on a moderate salary" + "we're going to tax your daily commute, the same as your boss" doesn't feel fair.
    - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
      The “fair” answer is get on a train. There are plenty of affordable communities on the Metro North, LIRR and NJ Transit.
      - bunderbunder 9y ago
        How practical is that for the people who are currently driving in NYC? In Chicago, the vast majority of people who live in the suburbs and work in the loop take Metra. But Chicago's transit system is so heavily hub-and-spoke that the public transit just isn't practical if you don't work near the hub, and plenty of people don't. For them, it's frequently a choice between an hour or so in traffic, and more like 2 hours split among some combination of traffic (to get to the commuter train station), train, and maybe bus. I can't really blame anyone for deciding that 4 hours total commuting is not an option.
        JumpCrisscross 9y ago
        > I can't really blame anyone for deciding that 4 hours total commuting is not an option I know people who drive from their faraway place to a train station outside the city and then take the Metro-North into Grand Central Station. From street parking to bridges and tunnels, New York City massively subsidises drivers. I'd strongly prefer we raise tolls and congestion charges and use the proceeds to modernize our subway system.
        lazerpants 9y ago
        >New York City massively subsidises drivers. Actually, the bridge and tunnel tolls are major revenue generators for the MTA. The subway is near revenue neutral. The buses lose tons of money.
      - jimmaswell 9y ago
        Tax funded roads being gated off to those without higher incomes doesn't sound fair to me in any case, even if there are alternatives.
        lotsofpulp 9y ago
        Sometimes, the world doesn't present us with a solution that is "fair", especially when demand is greater than supply. Assuming you were tasked with reducing the congestion of the road network in NYC and its surrounding areas, do you any ideas of a solution that is "fair"? Edit: Elsewhere in this thread, someone posted a link to Beijing's solution to congestion, which seem interesting: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_space_rationing_in_Beijing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_space_rationing_in_Beij... Unfortunately, I don't know if I would trust the politics of NY to allow for that.
  - lotsofpulp 9y ago
    I am not knowledgeable about the costs of roadwork and whatnot in NYC, so I can't speak to how much a toll should be or shouldn't be. However, there is a hard ceiling on how much capacity a network of roads can accommodate (assuming you want it to keep moving at a reasonable pace), so a toll can help in reducing the demand. I'm not sure how much a toll would have to be to reduce demand, but I can see many of the drivers in NYC being unphased by $15 (I'm not sure of the specifics of the toll plan, if it's for a certain number of hours or every time you enter and exit, etc). Edit: "screw the poor" always happens when you have a limited quantity of the desired product/service. In this case, the allocation is based on how much money you have.
  - sol_remmy 9y ago
    $15 is indefensible. Why is the answer "screw the poor"? Why screw the middle class? Is paying 15$ every time you drive somewhere sustainable for you? If it is, then your not middle class - your rich
    - apcragg 9y ago
      Then don't go places you can't afford to pay the externality for. It doesn't screw the poor, its allocating finite resources in a market-based economy. If we want to socialize the cost of infrastructure (which I agree with) then taxes need to be levied. Virginians aren't paying Manhattan property tax so why is it so outrageous to tax people entering over an expensive and congested bridge?
  - jonknee 9y ago
    > They could get by fine on a normal toll amount. $15 is indefensible. Who's to say $15 isn't a normal toll amount? As far as I know the bridge is quite busy which means it seems very defensible. They discount it for electronically billed tolls (which makes it faster for everybody) and discount it again for carpoolers (less cars, again faster for everybody). The $15 is the amount you pay if you're having the most impact.
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > Large amounts of traffic means more tolls collected. They could get by fine on a normal toll amount. $15 is indefensible. Why is the answer "screw the poor"? The answer isn't "screw the poor", because the poor aren't generally driving into Manhattan. They're taking public transit. Driving into Manhattan is already incredibly expensive. $15 is a drop in the bucket compared to what people already have to pay.
jimmaswell 9y ago
I just recently learned about this. It's unbelievable. How can anyone defend a $15 toll? I'm glad I don't have any business in NYC.
- matchbok 9y ago
  The millions of people who do live in NYC thank you. The toll is working as expected.
  - jimmaswell 9y ago
    So you'd rather have less people spend money at your establishments and visit tourist destinations (which is surely more than $15 spent per trip per vehicle). Whatever you say. Why not go full enclave and get rid of all bridges and tunnels in and out?
    - freehunter 9y ago
      If New York was hurting for tourists and customers, they'd lower the toll. The defense for what people are calling "indefensible" is that enough people pay the toll that traffic is still a nightmare. If it was indefensible, no one would pay it.
    - jimktrains2 9y ago
      NYC isn't exactly hurting in terms of the number of people there or foot traffic.
    - IkmoIkmo 9y ago
      As I understand it, public transport is a viable (toll-free) alternative for (less-affluent) locals. Such that this toll primarily targets the more affluent class and tourists. Given there are limits to capacity for tourists, driving up costs increases revenue per unit of capacity and as it's limited, that's probably a good choice. Not dissimilar to raising prices if you're selling 100% of your production/inventory. It's probably a pretty good deal for the average new yorker.
- 9y ago
kageneko 9y ago
Oh, we needed the money. :( I live on the OTP on the east side, so GA400 toll didn't hit me. There was a political promise to end the toll when the improvements on 400 were finished. Initially, the DOT wanted to keep the toll booths open to pay for additional improvements (GA400-I285 interchange, expansion of GA400, etc.) but the cries of broken promises ended that plan. Let us not forget the congestion pricing for the express lanes on I85. The price kept going down and down during the first few months it was around. I seem to recall plans to use congestion pricing for further I75 and GA400 expansions.
- madcaptenor 9y ago
  I think I've also heard plans for congestion pricing on express lanes on 285 (not sure of the extent of those - I want to say between 75 and 85 on the north side?)
- 0xcafecafe 9y ago
  I have already started seeing congestion pricing signs on I-75
madcaptenor 9y ago
I'm pretty sure Atlanta could use the money. At the very least we could use it to buy salt and plows so that the city doesn't close down for two days after an inch of snow.
ynniv 9y ago
We ended the toll on 400 because it reduced the throughput of the highway, and we're all paying through our taxes anyway.

lotsofpulp 9y ago

Freezing temperatures, salt, underground infrastructure, and large amounts of traffic increase costs tremendously. Additionally, sometimes the infrastructure cannot handle the demand, therefore demand has to be reduced, and the easiest (and maybe most optimal way for society) is to implement tolls.

jimmaswell 9y ago
Large amounts of traffic means more tolls collected. They could get by fine on a normal toll amount. $15 is indefensible. Why is the answer "screw the poor"?
- ethbro 9y ago
  $15 isn't indefensible if the project is solely or mostly funded with tolls (and therefore not out of state / city budget). But as to toll (flat) vs tax (progressive), you're right: it's definitely screwing over the poor. I'm all in favor of usage based charging, but "unaffordable to live near work on a moderate salary" + "we're going to tax your daily commute, the same as your boss" doesn't feel fair.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    The “fair” answer is get on a train. There are plenty of affordable communities on the Metro North, LIRR and NJ Transit.
    - bunderbunder 9y ago
      How practical is that for the people who are currently driving in NYC? In Chicago, the vast majority of people who live in the suburbs and work in the loop take Metra. But Chicago's transit system is so heavily hub-and-spoke that the public transit just isn't practical if you don't work near the hub, and plenty of people don't. For them, it's frequently a choice between an hour or so in traffic, and more like 2 hours split among some combination of traffic (to get to the commuter train station), train, and maybe bus. I can't really blame anyone for deciding that 4 hours total commuting is not an option.
      - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
        > I can't really blame anyone for deciding that 4 hours total commuting is not an option I know people who drive from their faraway place to a train station outside the city and then take the Metro-North into Grand Central Station. From street parking to bridges and tunnels, New York City massively subsidises drivers. I'd strongly prefer we raise tolls and congestion charges and use the proceeds to modernize our subway system.
        lazerpants 9y ago
        >New York City massively subsidises drivers. Actually, the bridge and tunnel tolls are major revenue generators for the MTA. The subway is near revenue neutral. The buses lose tons of money.
    - jimmaswell 9y ago
      Tax funded roads being gated off to those without higher incomes doesn't sound fair to me in any case, even if there are alternatives.
      - lotsofpulp 9y ago
        Sometimes, the world doesn't present us with a solution that is "fair", especially when demand is greater than supply. Assuming you were tasked with reducing the congestion of the road network in NYC and its surrounding areas, do you any ideas of a solution that is "fair"? Edit: Elsewhere in this thread, someone posted a link to Beijing's solution to congestion, which seem interesting: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_space_rationing_in_Beijing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_space_rationing_in_Beij... Unfortunately, I don't know if I would trust the politics of NY to allow for that.
- lotsofpulp 9y ago
  I am not knowledgeable about the costs of roadwork and whatnot in NYC, so I can't speak to how much a toll should be or shouldn't be. However, there is a hard ceiling on how much capacity a network of roads can accommodate (assuming you want it to keep moving at a reasonable pace), so a toll can help in reducing the demand. I'm not sure how much a toll would have to be to reduce demand, but I can see many of the drivers in NYC being unphased by $15 (I'm not sure of the specifics of the toll plan, if it's for a certain number of hours or every time you enter and exit, etc). Edit: "screw the poor" always happens when you have a limited quantity of the desired product/service. In this case, the allocation is based on how much money you have.
- sol_remmy 9y ago
  $15 is indefensible. Why is the answer "screw the poor"? Why screw the middle class? Is paying 15$ every time you drive somewhere sustainable for you? If it is, then your not middle class - your rich
  - apcragg 9y ago
    Then don't go places you can't afford to pay the externality for. It doesn't screw the poor, its allocating finite resources in a market-based economy. If we want to socialize the cost of infrastructure (which I agree with) then taxes need to be levied. Virginians aren't paying Manhattan property tax so why is it so outrageous to tax people entering over an expensive and congested bridge?
- jonknee 9y ago
  > They could get by fine on a normal toll amount. $15 is indefensible. Who's to say $15 isn't a normal toll amount? As far as I know the bridge is quite busy which means it seems very defensible. They discount it for electronically billed tolls (which makes it faster for everybody) and discount it again for carpoolers (less cars, again faster for everybody). The $15 is the amount you pay if you're having the most impact.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > Large amounts of traffic means more tolls collected. They could get by fine on a normal toll amount. $15 is indefensible. Why is the answer "screw the poor"? The answer isn't "screw the poor", because the poor aren't generally driving into Manhattan. They're taking public transit. Driving into Manhattan is already incredibly expensive. $15 is a drop in the bucket compared to what people already have to pay.

jimmaswell 9y ago

I just recently learned about this. It's unbelievable. How can anyone defend a $15 toll? I'm glad I don't have any business in NYC.

matchbok 9y ago
The millions of people who do live in NYC thank you. The toll is working as expected.
- jimmaswell 9y ago
  So you'd rather have less people spend money at your establishments and visit tourist destinations (which is surely more than $15 spent per trip per vehicle). Whatever you say. Why not go full enclave and get rid of all bridges and tunnels in and out?
  - freehunter 9y ago
    If New York was hurting for tourists and customers, they'd lower the toll. The defense for what people are calling "indefensible" is that enough people pay the toll that traffic is still a nightmare. If it was indefensible, no one would pay it.
  - jimktrains2 9y ago
    NYC isn't exactly hurting in terms of the number of people there or foot traffic.
  - IkmoIkmo 9y ago
    As I understand it, public transport is a viable (toll-free) alternative for (less-affluent) locals. Such that this toll primarily targets the more affluent class and tourists. Given there are limits to capacity for tourists, driving up costs increases revenue per unit of capacity and as it's limited, that's probably a good choice. Not dissimilar to raising prices if you're selling 100% of your production/inventory. It's probably a pretty good deal for the average new yorker.
9y ago

kageneko 9y ago

Oh, we needed the money. :( I live on the OTP on the east side, so GA400 toll didn't hit me. There was a political promise to end the toll when the improvements on 400 were finished. Initially, the DOT wanted to keep the toll booths open to pay for additional improvements (GA400-I285 interchange, expansion of GA400, etc.) but the cries of broken promises ended that plan. Let us not forget the congestion pricing for the express lanes on I85. The price kept going down and down during the first few months it was around. I seem to recall plans to use congestion pricing for further I75 and GA400 expansions.

madcaptenor 9y ago
I think I've also heard plans for congestion pricing on express lanes on 285 (not sure of the extent of those - I want to say between 75 and 85 on the north side?)
0xcafecafe 9y ago
I have already started seeing congestion pricing signs on I-75

madcaptenor 9y ago

I'm pretty sure Atlanta could use the money. At the very least we could use it to buy salt and plows so that the city doesn't close down for two days after an inch of snow.

ynniv 9y ago

We ended the toll on 400 because it reduced the throughput of the highway, and we're all paying through our taxes anyway.