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> a common subset of Vulkan, D3D12 and Metal with a common shading language. So, Vulkan? This is literally what Vulkan exists for, and does – a shading languag

> a common subset of Vulkan, D3D12 and Metal with a common shading language. So, Vulkan? This is literally what Vulkan exists for, and does – a shading language and API implemented by all vendors.

jsheard 9y ago
In a perfect world yes, but Apple doesn't support Vulkan and probably never will. Microsoft doesn't support Vulkan in UWP apps either. Vulkan being a universal 3D API is a myth - it only exists on Windows (as a second class citizen), Linux, Android, and the Nintendo Switch.
- kuschku 9y ago
  Well, then Apple users will just see what a Firefox user sees today when they visit Google Earth: Your Browser is not supported. This isn’t an issue – there’s more people using Firefox, or even more unusual browsers, which can’t use half the web, than there are people using Apple devices.
  - tpush 9y ago
    > [...] there’s more people using Firefox, or even more unusual browsers, which can’t use half the web, than there are people using Apple devices. Highly unlikely.
    - kuschku 9y ago
      In Germany, Apple has a sub-16% mobile marketshare, and even less on desktop. Firefox has 43% marketshare. Google frequently releases major products without Firefox support, with this only being added months or years later. This is reality today.
      - tpush 9y ago
        Germany != the World. Besides, market share of iOS in Germany is ~32% [1], and Firefox ~17% [2], according to stat counter. And even those numbers are lower/higher(respectively) than those of countries like USA, UK, Australia, Japan etc... [1] http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/germany http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/germany [2] http://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/all/germany http://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/all/germany
        kuschku 9y ago
        Congratulations, you counted mobile usage, not desktop usage. I mentioned a 43% desktop ussge for Firefox.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  And on Switch, Nintendo also has their own API, in a similar vein to Sony when they toyed with OpenGL ES 1.0 support.
applecrazy 9y ago
Yeah, but I read somewhere that Apple dislikes Vulkan and will never support it on their platforms. After all, they have a competing API, Metal Edit: Source: Hacker News comment a while ago by a person who talked to the team at WWDC
- namelost 9y ago
  Unfortunately for Apple, there's even more people outside of Apple who just wish Metal would die.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Only on HN. All major graphics middleware and image manipulation applications, are already Metal aware.
  - ksec 9y ago
    I have never heard anyone who has used Vulkan actually advocate for it. But I have heard a lot of good things from Graphics Developers on Metal. This isn't to say Vulkan is bad, everyone seems to be saying "In Vulkan, You really needs to know what you are doing".
  - kvark 9y ago
    Metal the API has some elegance in it, but the target range of hardware is controllable and way more limited than what Vulkan was designed for. Apple can choose what graphics goes into their Macs and iPhones, collaborate with the mobile GPU provider, etc.
- lightedman 9y ago
  "After all, they have a competing API, Metal" Which is hilarious because the trademarks on the S3 Virge with MeTaL API from the late 90s/early 2000s are still in effect. S3 should be suing Apple right now.
- j_s 9y ago
  https://hn.algolia.com/?query=metal%20wwdc&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=metal%20wwdc&sort=byDate&type=... -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15734680 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15734680 >acoye: I see a couple of issues with the Mac / TF OpenCL situation. Apple is pushing metal and performance shaders, I would not bet on strong support from them keeping up to date drivers with performant ocl. I asked at wwdc17 about vulkan and they clearly do not want it on their platform.
flohofwoe 9y ago
Vulkan is only available on Win32, Linux and Android though. The reality is that there is no standard low-level 3D-API. I don't see this as a problem though, the complexity of Vulkan shows that it is very hard to create a one-size-fits-all 3D API, competition is good and Metal shows that it is possible to create a balanced 3D-API which combines modern features with ease of use.
- intelhearts 9y ago
  > Win32, Linux and Android So... pretty much everywhere then?
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Regarding Windows, Vulkan is only available on the desktop. UWP only allows for DirectX. And it is an optional 3D API on Android, starting with version 7.0. Which makes it pretty useless when targeting the majority of Android market, given the whole upgrade story.
- kvark 9y ago
  This is solvable, to an extend, on the user side via a software layer ([1]). [1] https://www.khronos.org/blog/khronos-announces-the-vulkan-portability-initiative https://www.khronos.org/blog/khronos-announces-the-vulkan-po...

> a common subset of Vulkan, D3D12 and Metal with a common shading language. So, Vulkan? This is literally what Vulkan exists for, and does – a shading language and API implemented by all vendors.

jsheard 9y ago

In a perfect world yes, but Apple doesn't support Vulkan and probably never will. Microsoft doesn't support Vulkan in UWP apps either. Vulkan being a universal 3D API is a myth - it only exists on Windows (as a second class citizen), Linux, Android, and the Nintendo Switch.

kuschku 9y ago
Well, then Apple users will just see what a Firefox user sees today when they visit Google Earth: Your Browser is not supported. This isn’t an issue – there’s more people using Firefox, or even more unusual browsers, which can’t use half the web, than there are people using Apple devices.
- tpush 9y ago
  > [...] there’s more people using Firefox, or even more unusual browsers, which can’t use half the web, than there are people using Apple devices. Highly unlikely.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    In Germany, Apple has a sub-16% mobile marketshare, and even less on desktop. Firefox has 43% marketshare. Google frequently releases major products without Firefox support, with this only being added months or years later. This is reality today.
    - tpush 9y ago
      Germany != the World. Besides, market share of iOS in Germany is ~32% [1], and Firefox ~17% [2], according to stat counter. And even those numbers are lower/higher(respectively) than those of countries like USA, UK, Australia, Japan etc... [1] http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/germany http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/germany [2] http://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/all/germany http://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/all/germany
      - kuschku 9y ago
        Congratulations, you counted mobile usage, not desktop usage. I mentioned a 43% desktop ussge for Firefox.
pjmlp 9y ago
And on Switch, Nintendo also has their own API, in a similar vein to Sony when they toyed with OpenGL ES 1.0 support.

applecrazy 9y ago

Yeah, but I read somewhere that Apple dislikes Vulkan and will never support it on their platforms. After all, they have a competing API, Metal Edit: Source: Hacker News comment a while ago by a person who talked to the team at WWDC

namelost 9y ago
Unfortunately for Apple, there's even more people outside of Apple who just wish Metal would die.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Only on HN. All major graphics middleware and image manipulation applications, are already Metal aware.
- ksec 9y ago
  I have never heard anyone who has used Vulkan actually advocate for it. But I have heard a lot of good things from Graphics Developers on Metal. This isn't to say Vulkan is bad, everyone seems to be saying "In Vulkan, You really needs to know what you are doing".
- kvark 9y ago
  Metal the API has some elegance in it, but the target range of hardware is controllable and way more limited than what Vulkan was designed for. Apple can choose what graphics goes into their Macs and iPhones, collaborate with the mobile GPU provider, etc.
lightedman 9y ago
"After all, they have a competing API, Metal" Which is hilarious because the trademarks on the S3 Virge with MeTaL API from the late 90s/early 2000s are still in effect. S3 should be suing Apple right now.
j_s 9y ago
https://hn.algolia.com/?query=metal%20wwdc&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=metal%20wwdc&sort=byDate&type=... -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15734680 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15734680 >acoye: I see a couple of issues with the Mac / TF OpenCL situation. Apple is pushing metal and performance shaders, I would not bet on strong support from them keeping up to date drivers with performant ocl. I asked at wwdc17 about vulkan and they clearly do not want it on their platform.

flohofwoe 9y ago

Vulkan is only available on Win32, Linux and Android though. The reality is that there is no standard low-level 3D-API. I don't see this as a problem though, the complexity of Vulkan shows that it is very hard to create a one-size-fits-all 3D API, competition is good and Metal shows that it is possible to create a balanced 3D-API which combines modern features with ease of use.

intelhearts 9y ago
> Win32, Linux and Android So... pretty much everywhere then?
pjmlp 9y ago
Regarding Windows, Vulkan is only available on the desktop. UWP only allows for DirectX. And it is an optional 3D API on Android, starting with version 7.0. Which makes it pretty useless when targeting the majority of Android market, given the whole upgrade story.
kvark 9y ago
This is solvable, to an extend, on the user side via a software layer ([1]). [1] https://www.khronos.org/blog/khronos-announces-the-vulkan-portability-initiative https://www.khronos.org/blog/khronos-announces-the-vulkan-po...