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Note this is not about WebGL, but about WebGPU by Apple, claiming it "generally offers better performance" than OpenGL/WebGL. I'm not an expert in this area, b

Note this is not about WebGL, but about WebGPU by Apple, claiming it "generally offers better performance" than OpenGL/WebGL. I'm not an expert in this area, but isn't it a bad idea to introduce another standard if there's already WebGL with great cross-browser and -platform support? It reminds me of what people have been raging about towards Microsoft for years...

deleted 9y ago
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m_eiman 9y ago
This is like the web variant of Vulcan/Metal/etc, isn't it? Lower level API than GL.
markdog12 9y ago
It's being introduced for the same reason it was on desktop, increased performance, more GPU features, avoidance of poor driver implementation, and more optimal usage of the underlying hardware. See https://gpuweb.github.io/admin/cg-charter.html https://gpuweb.github.io/admin/cg-charter.html
flohofwoe 9y ago
Apple's WebGPU is just one of 3 proposals (from Mozilla, Google and Apple) of what the WebGL successor will look like. WebGPU is (more or less) a mapping of the Metal 3D API to the web, but the final standard API will have to be a common subset of Vulkan, D3D12 and Metal with a common shading language. The WebGL programming model has a lot of shortcoming from a modern point of view, see here: http://floooh.github.io/2016/08/13/webgl-next.html http://floooh.github.io/2016/08/13/webgl-next.html (you can mostly ignore my criticism of adopting Vulkan for the web, the Mozilla proposal (called Obsidian) is pretty close to Vulkan, and doesn't look as bad as I feared when I wrote that blog post).
- kuschku 9y ago
  > a common subset of Vulkan, D3D12 and Metal with a common shading language. So, Vulkan? This is literally what Vulkan exists for, and does – a shading language and API implemented by all vendors.
  - jsheard 9y ago
    In a perfect world yes, but Apple doesn't support Vulkan and probably never will. Microsoft doesn't support Vulkan in UWP apps either. Vulkan being a universal 3D API is a myth - it only exists on Windows (as a second class citizen), Linux, Android, and the Nintendo Switch.
    - kuschku 9y ago
      Well, then Apple users will just see what a Firefox user sees today when they visit Google Earth: Your Browser is not supported. This isn’t an issue – there’s more people using Firefox, or even more unusual browsers, which can’t use half the web, than there are people using Apple devices.
      - tpush 9y ago
        > [...] there’s more people using Firefox, or even more unusual browsers, which can’t use half the web, than there are people using Apple devices. Highly unlikely.
        kuschku 9y ago
        In Germany, Apple has a sub-16% mobile marketshare, and even less on desktop. Firefox has 43% marketshare. Google frequently releases major products without Firefox support, with this only being added months or years later. This is reality today.
        tpush 9y ago
        Germany != the World. Besides, market share of iOS in Germany is ~32% [1], and Firefox ~17% [2], according to stat counter. And even those numbers are lower/higher(respectively) than those of countries like USA, UK, Australia, Japan etc... [1] http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/germany http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/germany [2] http://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/all/germany http://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/all/germany
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DiThi 9y ago
If it maps closely enough to Vulkan, it's good (and it seems it will be the case according to the other comment). It's not the only competing successor of WebGL.
- kvark 9y ago
  Apple's prototype is basically WebMetal, and the question about how well it maps to Vulkan is still open. Like, surely, there are hoops you've got to solve (w.r.t memory types, pipeline barriers, etc), but it's not clear how much actual real-world performance is going to be lost on this emulation. Same goes to the other direction (mapping from Obsidian/WebVulkan to Metal), with a caveat that Vulkan requires more state to be communicated, so it's easier to ignore some of the user input (if it doesn't make sense on Metal) than to figure out the missing bits.

deleted 9y ago

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m_eiman 9y ago

This is like the web variant of Vulcan/Metal/etc, isn't it? Lower level API than GL.

markdog12 9y ago

It's being introduced for the same reason it was on desktop, increased performance, more GPU features, avoidance of poor driver implementation, and more optimal usage of the underlying hardware. See https://gpuweb.github.io/admin/cg-charter.html https://gpuweb.github.io/admin/cg-charter.html

flohofwoe 9y ago

Apple's WebGPU is just one of 3 proposals (from Mozilla, Google and Apple) of what the WebGL successor will look like. WebGPU is (more or less) a mapping of the Metal 3D API to the web, but the final standard API will have to be a common subset of Vulkan, D3D12 and Metal with a common shading language. The WebGL programming model has a lot of shortcoming from a modern point of view, see here: http://floooh.github.io/2016/08/13/webgl-next.html http://floooh.github.io/2016/08/13/webgl-next.html (you can mostly ignore my criticism of adopting Vulkan for the web, the Mozilla proposal (called Obsidian) is pretty close to Vulkan, and doesn't look as bad as I feared when I wrote that blog post).

kuschku 9y ago
> a common subset of Vulkan, D3D12 and Metal with a common shading language. So, Vulkan? This is literally what Vulkan exists for, and does – a shading language and API implemented by all vendors.
- jsheard 9y ago
  In a perfect world yes, but Apple doesn't support Vulkan and probably never will. Microsoft doesn't support Vulkan in UWP apps either. Vulkan being a universal 3D API is a myth - it only exists on Windows (as a second class citizen), Linux, Android, and the Nintendo Switch.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    Well, then Apple users will just see what a Firefox user sees today when they visit Google Earth: Your Browser is not supported. This isn’t an issue – there’s more people using Firefox, or even more unusual browsers, which can’t use half the web, than there are people using Apple devices.
    - tpush 9y ago
      > [...] there’s more people using Firefox, or even more unusual browsers, which can’t use half the web, than there are people using Apple devices. Highly unlikely.
      - kuschku 9y ago
        In Germany, Apple has a sub-16% mobile marketshare, and even less on desktop. Firefox has 43% marketshare. Google frequently releases major products without Firefox support, with this only being added months or years later. This is reality today.
        tpush 9y ago
        Germany != the World. Besides, market share of iOS in Germany is ~32% [1], and Firefox ~17% [2], according to stat counter. And even those numbers are lower/higher(respectively) than those of countries like USA, UK, Australia, Japan etc... [1] http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/germany http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/germany [2] http://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/all/germany http://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/all/germany

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

DiThi 9y ago

If it maps closely enough to Vulkan, it's good (and it seems it will be the case according to the other comment). It's not the only competing successor of WebGL.

kvark 9y ago
Apple's prototype is basically WebMetal, and the question about how well it maps to Vulkan is still open. Like, surely, there are hoops you've got to solve (w.r.t memory types, pipeline barriers, etc), but it's not clear how much actual real-world performance is going to be lost on this emulation. Same goes to the other direction (mapping from Obsidian/WebVulkan to Metal), with a caveat that Vulkan requires more state to be communicated, so it's easier to ignore some of the user input (if it doesn't make sense on Metal) than to figure out the missing bits.