8 ms·

These conversations I feel always seem shallow to me. Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels lik

by swalsh 9y ago

These conversations I feel always seem shallow to me. Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages. If we're going to talk about "reorganizing society", it should factor in EVERY person in the world. Not just the lucky 10% in first world countries.

aalleavitch 9y ago
I agree, but I think we absolutely need to be thinking right now about how society is going to be functioning three or four decades from now. The rate of technological advancement hasn't slowed down, and depending on how closely you're following developments in a lot of these countries we traditionally think of as poor or underdeveloped you might find yourself surprised at how quickly they're starting to catch up.
clarry 9y ago
> Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages. I don't know about you but the homes, roads, cars, plumbing, healthcare, energy, food, and most other things vital to our lifestyle do not come from China or Taiwan. And even where Asian products are popular (e.g. big home appliances), European alternatives do exist. I feel like people in the tech sphere can't look or see beyond smartphones, laptops, and other tech gadgets.
- carlmr 9y ago
  >And even where Asian products are popular (e.g. big home appliances), European alternatives do exist. I can think of Miele. That's the only one that's propely German still. Bosch/Siemens are both very much Asian on the inside. They do some assembly in Germany as far as I know. Can't think of any other European brands in this space.
  - clarry 9y ago
    How about Electrolux (AEG, Rosenlew, etc.), Liebherr, Gorenje/Asko/Upo, Festivo, Smeg, Hotpoint? If you want to avoid Asian products, we can buy American too.. e.g. Whirlpool.
    - saiya-jin 9y ago
      ah don't mention Electrolux, that brand has been just a disappointment to me. Subpar dishwasher (comparable Siemens one cleans dishes visibly better), very subpar washing machine (integrated dryer has almost 0 effect on how wet laundry is), kitchen hood above stove stopped working completely after 6 months (of course this one is most costly to change because its integrated to the wall). All bought in 2016 for flat reconstruction, none of them basic models, rather higher ones (but not highest). I am not that rich to afford managing of those crappy things. Never, ever again (I had same type of experience with Whirlpool cca 10 years ago). For +-reasonable pricing, Siemens & Bosch, for absolute quality and reliability, Miele.
    - carlmr 9y ago
      They are all European brands, but they don't produce in Europe, at most there's some assembly or they outright buy from Chinese companies and rebrand.
- eeZah7Ux 9y ago
  In many countries plenty of construction material (paint, metal...) and chemicals come from very poor areas: China, Africa & so on.
adrianN 9y ago
Such improvements tend to spread from rich to poor. People in developing countries choose those horrible factory jobs because they're still better than subsistence farming. China is lifting huge numbers of people from abject poverty every year. Eventually wages rise.
- visarga 9y ago
  > Such improvements tend to spread from rich to poor. Best example - the mobile phone. Even the poor can get one that is better than the best smartphone of a few years ago. Access to content has seen a similar trend - we now all have access to massive amounts of information, videos and online conversation. No money needed, so the poor get immediately the same level of access as the rich.
  - clarry 9y ago
    > No money needed, so the poor get immediately the same level of access as the rich. Except for everywhere where poor connectivity and low data caps (+expensive plans relative to the income) are common.
- TuringTest 9y ago
  See NoGravitas post above: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16186508 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16186508
nickthemagicman 9y ago
Do you know that 8 people in the world have as much wealth as 3.6 BILLION people. That inequality is STAGGERING. Where do you think the problem lies?
- ojbrien 9y ago
  I find the use of this statistic really frustrating, if you're say an average westerner with $10,000 of debt and $2,000 savings - your net wealth is -$8,000. If on the other hand you sift through garbage somewhere in Africa and earn 50c per day your net wealth is ~$0. By this metric the garbage site worker is wealthier than the Westerner fresh from university.
  - anfilt 9y ago
    Well they are more wealthier till that debt is paid off. However, the metric does not include cash flow. The westerner has a greater cash flow than the person in Africa. However, what happen if that person looses their job? Suddenly, their quality life will probably drop. They might even end homeless unable to pay rent. However, the westerner is probably better off overall.
    - goatlover 9y ago
      It's all the wealth around you including the infrastructure that you can partially take advantage of that the African probably lacks.
      - anfilt 9y ago
        Henceforth, why I said probably better off.
  - ComputerGuru 9y ago
    Perhaps the first derivative of net wealth is a better metric?
    - 9y ago
lbotos 9y ago
I've been calling amazon prime a "hiding of the poor" to my friends and family. Hide the laborers in a far off insanely demanding warehouse, you just get the goods. (I don't have prime, I don't use prime, and I don't want this to be our future.)
- corey_moncure 9y ago
  Yes, this is exactly it. Slavery was distasteful so we used the modern economy to abstract the slavery out of sight, hide it under the rug. One click buy! Pay no attention to the machine behind the curtain. Wish Amazon would offer an entirely "Made in first world with protected workers" store.
  - cdoxsey 9y ago
    How does that help a poor worker in Bangladesh? In many of these countries people voluntarily choose to work in these factories. They're terrible places to work, but apparently its still better than working in the fields. A more effective strategy might be something like: https://www.ijm.org/who-we-are https://www.ijm.org/who-we-are . They work within these countries to protect workers from the worst human rights abuses. (ie child sex trafficking and slavery)
    - NoGravitas 9y ago
      You should read about [Enclosure][1]. Most people, historically, given the choice between traditional subsistence farming, and industrial labor, chose subsistence farming. So governments and property owners took away the option of subsistence farming. This was a 16th-19th century process in Britain, but is an ongoing process in poorer countries now. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure
      - 52-6F-62 9y ago
        This is pretty well what happened to my family pre-mid-1800's (not sure exactly when). The Highland Clearances resulted in them leaving Ayrshire to work in Broxburn/Uphall near Edinburgh which at the time were essentially towns owned by shale mining companies. They remained there at least 100 years until one member defiantly decided to move to Canada (mid 1900s). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances

by swalsh 9y ago

aalleavitch 9y ago

I agree, but I think we absolutely need to be thinking right now about how society is going to be functioning three or four decades from now. The rate of technological advancement hasn't slowed down, and depending on how closely you're following developments in a lot of these countries we traditionally think of as poor or underdeveloped you might find yourself surprised at how quickly they're starting to catch up.

clarry 9y ago

> Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages. I don't know about you but the homes, roads, cars, plumbing, healthcare, energy, food, and most other things vital to our lifestyle do not come from China or Taiwan. And even where Asian products are popular (e.g. big home appliances), European alternatives do exist. I feel like people in the tech sphere can't look or see beyond smartphones, laptops, and other tech gadgets.

carlmr 9y ago
>And even where Asian products are popular (e.g. big home appliances), European alternatives do exist. I can think of Miele. That's the only one that's propely German still. Bosch/Siemens are both very much Asian on the inside. They do some assembly in Germany as far as I know. Can't think of any other European brands in this space.
- clarry 9y ago
  How about Electrolux (AEG, Rosenlew, etc.), Liebherr, Gorenje/Asko/Upo, Festivo, Smeg, Hotpoint? If you want to avoid Asian products, we can buy American too.. e.g. Whirlpool.
  - saiya-jin 9y ago
    ah don't mention Electrolux, that brand has been just a disappointment to me. Subpar dishwasher (comparable Siemens one cleans dishes visibly better), very subpar washing machine (integrated dryer has almost 0 effect on how wet laundry is), kitchen hood above stove stopped working completely after 6 months (of course this one is most costly to change because its integrated to the wall). All bought in 2016 for flat reconstruction, none of them basic models, rather higher ones (but not highest). I am not that rich to afford managing of those crappy things. Never, ever again (I had same type of experience with Whirlpool cca 10 years ago). For +-reasonable pricing, Siemens & Bosch, for absolute quality and reliability, Miele.
  - carlmr 9y ago
    They are all European brands, but they don't produce in Europe, at most there's some assembly or they outright buy from Chinese companies and rebrand.
eeZah7Ux 9y ago
In many countries plenty of construction material (paint, metal...) and chemicals come from very poor areas: China, Africa & so on.

adrianN 9y ago

Such improvements tend to spread from rich to poor. People in developing countries choose those horrible factory jobs because they're still better than subsistence farming. China is lifting huge numbers of people from abject poverty every year. Eventually wages rise.

visarga 9y ago
> Such improvements tend to spread from rich to poor. Best example - the mobile phone. Even the poor can get one that is better than the best smartphone of a few years ago. Access to content has seen a similar trend - we now all have access to massive amounts of information, videos and online conversation. No money needed, so the poor get immediately the same level of access as the rich.
- clarry 9y ago
  > No money needed, so the poor get immediately the same level of access as the rich. Except for everywhere where poor connectivity and low data caps (+expensive plans relative to the income) are common.
TuringTest 9y ago
See NoGravitas post above: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16186508 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16186508

nickthemagicman 9y ago

Do you know that 8 people in the world have as much wealth as 3.6 BILLION people. That inequality is STAGGERING. Where do you think the problem lies?

ojbrien 9y ago
I find the use of this statistic really frustrating, if you're say an average westerner with $10,000 of debt and $2,000 savings - your net wealth is -$8,000. If on the other hand you sift through garbage somewhere in Africa and earn 50c per day your net wealth is ~$0. By this metric the garbage site worker is wealthier than the Westerner fresh from university.
- anfilt 9y ago
  Well they are more wealthier till that debt is paid off. However, the metric does not include cash flow. The westerner has a greater cash flow than the person in Africa. However, what happen if that person looses their job? Suddenly, their quality life will probably drop. They might even end homeless unable to pay rent. However, the westerner is probably better off overall.
  - goatlover 9y ago
    It's all the wealth around you including the infrastructure that you can partially take advantage of that the African probably lacks.
    - anfilt 9y ago
      Henceforth, why I said probably better off.
- ComputerGuru 9y ago
  Perhaps the first derivative of net wealth is a better metric?
  - 9y ago

lbotos 9y ago

I've been calling amazon prime a "hiding of the poor" to my friends and family. Hide the laborers in a far off insanely demanding warehouse, you just get the goods. (I don't have prime, I don't use prime, and I don't want this to be our future.)

corey_moncure 9y ago
Yes, this is exactly it. Slavery was distasteful so we used the modern economy to abstract the slavery out of sight, hide it under the rug. One click buy! Pay no attention to the machine behind the curtain. Wish Amazon would offer an entirely "Made in first world with protected workers" store.
- cdoxsey 9y ago
  How does that help a poor worker in Bangladesh? In many of these countries people voluntarily choose to work in these factories. They're terrible places to work, but apparently its still better than working in the fields. A more effective strategy might be something like: https://www.ijm.org/who-we-are https://www.ijm.org/who-we-are . They work within these countries to protect workers from the worst human rights abuses. (ie child sex trafficking and slavery)
  - NoGravitas 9y ago
    You should read about [Enclosure][1]. Most people, historically, given the choice between traditional subsistence farming, and industrial labor, chose subsistence farming. So governments and property owners took away the option of subsistence farming. This was a 16th-19th century process in Britain, but is an ongoing process in poorer countries now. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure
    - 52-6F-62 9y ago
      This is pretty well what happened to my family pre-mid-1800's (not sure exactly when). The Highland Clearances resulted in them leaving Ayrshire to work in Broxburn/Uphall near Edinburgh which at the time were essentially towns owned by shale mining companies. They remained there at least 100 years until one member defiantly decided to move to Canada (mid 1900s). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances