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> The refrain of how a startup CEO is going to save humanity is so common that it’s actually uncommon for a CEO to not use saviour language when describing thei

> The refrain of how a startup CEO is going to save humanity is so common that it’s actually uncommon for a CEO to not use saviour language when describing their startup. Cult leaders do the same thing: they create a unique philosophy, imbued with some sort of special message that they alone can see or hear, convince people that only they have the answers for what ails humanity, and use that influence to control the people around them. I agree. I've been working in Silicon Valley for a few years now, and it honestly feels like a page out of Animal Farm. The Orwellian mismatch between rhetoric and action feels like cult-like propaganda to me. I don't know how veterans of the Valley can keep this up.

jackgolding 9y ago
I wonder if any managers can answer this, how do, or do you deal with employees that act within their rights and don't drink the cool-aid? There have been so many times where I have worked beyond the call of duty and on reflection I don't know why I did it - there is a low chance of getting a bonus or raise compared to spending the time actually getting paid to do something and you are in your right to say no (to some extent anyway, I remember a colleague got in trouble for going out for not cancelling his dinner plans instead of waiting hours for someone to come out of a 8 PM meeting.)
- reaperducer 9y ago
  > employees that act within their rights They fire the employee. I'm not a manager, but I know someone at a startup who, completely within their rights, complained to state regulators when the company's payroll became erratic. Next thing you know, she was out the door. (In the state in question, filing a formal complaint requires the complainant to give their real name and address, etc... and the employer gets a copy of the form with the letter of inquiry from the state.)
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- mpweiher 9y ago
  > act within their rights and don't drink the cool-aid? Drinking the cool-aid is generally enforced. I remember working with some Swedes, who brought with them the (to engineers and fellow europeans) refreshing northern honesty/cynicism. Well...suddenly, after a trip to South East Asia to talk to our outsourcers (who were, er, "less than 100% effective") he suddenly started gushing in the typical corporate speak about how amazing and wonderful everything was. All the engineers wondered what had happened to him. Two weeks later he was promoted to director.
  - smsm42 9y ago
    Maybe he already knew he is going to be promoted? Usually my experience is these things actually happen (i.e. decided) a while before they are announced, and if he knew he is going to receive a major promotion of course he'd think everything is wonderful!
- gervase 9y ago
  It really, really depends on the company and a whole host of other factors. If you pushed a bug to prod, knocked out all of Australia, then went home and aren't answering your phone because it's after hours and you're not on call, I'm not going to be happy with you. (Not that we would normally push to prod right before going home, but to illustrate the point...) If you work 9-5, M-F, never cause any fires, and hit your milestones, then I'm perfectly satisfied with that. That's just me, though; I intentionally maintain a relatively balanced workplace. Other companies and managers will have different styles. That being said, don't underestimate the importance of likeability [0]; you'll be fighting against human nature and unconscious biases if you do. How that manifests (general friendliness, going to after-hours social events, helping others with tough tasks, etc) will vary by person and team. [0]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-likability-matters-more-at-work-1395788402 https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-likability-matters-more-at-...
  - jackgolding 9y ago
    I guess what I want to understand is if for example you are a tech lead or PM and you "need" to deliver by a certain date and to achieve this you need others to work overtime - how can you do this? I think that is something I would struggle with as a manager or business owner, nearly every manager I know isn't in a position to offer anything for this service and a lot of employees I know who put in the hard yards for a sustained period of time don't get any financial/time reward for it...
QAPereo 9y ago
From what I’ve observed, the idea is to work in hell (edit: obviously hyperbole) until enough money is made to work on your own. Needless to say that doesn’t seem to be the majority experience. The carrot is money and security and the dream of fuck you money. The stick is being a code monkey who is still treated like shit, but who can’t even dream of early retirement and personal projects. It’s a shallow philosophy, but there it is. The willingness to take tons of shit from above, and the ability to rationalize the waste of talent seems to be what you’d expect from a glorified casino for billionaires. Variable-Ratio reward training will fuck you up. Edit: I would guess that fear plays a role too. I recall a poster here saying they wished they could change their circumstances, but they look at the guy delivering their pizza and feel terrified that could be them. Edit: Or a mod can just minimize this, but sadly it changes nothing, least of the the reality of your situation.
- smsm42 9y ago
  I'm not sure conditions in most tech companies are adequately described as "working in hell". I mean, the article above mentions "free cafeteria, gym, yoga rooms, and all night snack bars", and in companies like Google it goes way beyond that, plus salary that is way over the average... pretty much anywhere outside banking industry? plus vacations, medical coverage, 401k and other nice stuff - and then on top of that, you also get a small chance to be a millionaire. Not exactly how the hell looks like.
  - kmicklas 9y ago
    They give you all that stuff to some degree to cover over how toxic the culture and job is otherwise. Leaving Google was the best decision I ever made despite the fact that I now get none of those things and make significantly less money.
  - QAPereo 9y ago
    Ah yes... perks. Makes those endless late nights a bit less awful. Plus you get to work on such wonderful stuff! The Juicero team is probably still swollen with um... pride. Above average salary paired with wasaay above average cost of living and nightmare commutimg. Plus a chance at striking it rich which is somewhere between playing Powerball and the nickel slots. But hey, at least most of you love what you do, and wouldn’t choose to use your skills in a more productive way. I’m sure that a group who talks endlessly about FOSS doesn’t mind Google’s vision. Sure the FB team believes in privacy, but just one more pull on the slots! Edit: @Dang I disagree, and your dislike of my style stopped bothering me a while ago. So save your breath for threatening people with orders of magnitude more time here than me with bans, and then hilariously pleading with their sockpuppets to respect that ban. I am not impressed.
smsm42 9y ago
I've been in SV for a decade now and I am not observing anything cult-like. I haven't worked for companies like Google or Facebook or any other giant behemoths, so no idea how things are there, but in other places it's pretty far from a cult where I am. Of course, marketing sometimes goes a bit over the board, and each release of version 8.4 is the best thing that happened to humanity since v8.3 was released and before it's time to release v8.5. But that's kind of expected, nobody I know takes it as a literal truth. And of course there are mission statements that talk about improving human condition and expanding horizons and saving the world. Sometimes it happens, at least to a measure, sometimes it doesn't, but that's not usually what you're thinking the whole day about, and even not something you think about every week or every month. And of course (almost) each startup CEO thinks his (or her) startup is going to change the world, or at least some part of it. That's how you should think if you're getting into a startup, otherwise it's not worth the trouble, the stress and the extremely high chance of failure. Of course the CEO believes she (or he) found some special thing nobody thought of before and some unique vision nobody had before - otherwise how the startup could take off the ground at all? And really, describing giving up free gym, yoga class and cafeteria as "something horrible happening to you"... I can't even find adequate words to describe how wrong this is.
- Karrot_Kream 9y ago
  > Of course, marketing sometimes goes a bit over the board, and each release of version 8.4 is the best thing that happened to humanity since v8.3 was released and before it's time to release v8.5. But that's kind of expected, nobody I know takes it as a literal truth. > And of course (almost) each startup CEO thinks his (or her) startup is going to change the world, or at least some part of it. That's how you should think if you're getting into a startup, otherwise it's not worth the trouble, the stress and the extremely high chance of failure. I don't think this should be an "of course". This article highlights toxic tech culture, namely a culture found in tech that is toxic. Marketing is not specific to tech, nor are small businesses. Why does Uber tell me they're going to "make transportation as freely available as running water" but not Loreal's new shampoo? Why does the small chain of bike repair shops in my area, also taking the stress and high risk of starting their own business, not exhort about how their bike repair shop will change the world of bikes forever? This overboard marketing and out-of-touch mission statements are much more commonly found in tech than in elsewhere. This article discusses a culture formed by overboard marketing and out-of-touch mission statements and labels it as toxic. Moreover, there's an argument to be made about a field that oft labels itself as "meritocratic" relies on these hyperbolic forms of marketing and mission statements to do business, rather than a more traditional, "stodgy" business.
acchow 9y ago
Can you describe in what ways SV feels like Animal Farm? > The Orwellian mismatch between rhetoric and action feels like cult-like propaganda to me. Can you list out a few of these actions?
- j4ship 9y ago
  work life balance is double speak for : your life is your work an extreme cynical view , but that is the beauty of it , its hidden in plain sight. How can a company give indefinite vacation, only if it hires and prevays a culture of overwork? The type of people hired will never take that vacation. Im not right , but im not wrong. The point is "work life balance" and "unlimited vacation" are not clear ideas on the reality of the environments and for some they can be a rose colored glass over the true experience. SV is very much the benevolent dictator ... giving you everything you could ask for , just be its slave. Can a slave only be a slave for 10 years and leave? Can a job that pays over 6 figures feel like slavery? I answer yes to the latter. You are payed well , but you are not respected as a developer. This will only change when we become the heads of our industry and not the tools to be used by money men.
- Karrot_Kream 9y ago
  Maybe I should tell the (abridged) tale of XMPP. Once upon a time, XMPP was an open standard that allowed FB, Google, and independent clients federate at once. The reason Google and FB were able to become such popular messengers is because they allowed all sorts of clients to federate with them. This was the world of Pidgin, Trillian, GTalk, Adium, and others. Then Google and FB both closed off their XMPP support, citing overhead in maintaining a federated service. Facebook thought it was a better use of its resources to build a Snapchat clone named Slingshot. Google decided it was a better use of its resources to build a social network named Google+. Animal Farm: "Four legs good, two legs bad" Google: "Don't be evil" Animal Farm: "Four legs good, two legs better" Google: "You can make money without doing evil" [1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_evil#cite_note-GooglePhil-11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_evil#cite_note-Goog... In the old days, this was called Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.
  - 9y ago

jackgolding 9y ago

I wonder if any managers can answer this, how do, or do you deal with employees that act within their rights and don't drink the cool-aid? There have been so many times where I have worked beyond the call of duty and on reflection I don't know why I did it - there is a low chance of getting a bonus or raise compared to spending the time actually getting paid to do something and you are in your right to say no (to some extent anyway, I remember a colleague got in trouble for going out for not cancelling his dinner plans instead of waiting hours for someone to come out of a 8 PM meeting.)

reaperducer 9y ago
> employees that act within their rights They fire the employee. I'm not a manager, but I know someone at a startup who, completely within their rights, complained to state regulators when the company's payroll became erratic. Next thing you know, she was out the door. (In the state in question, filing a formal complaint requires the complainant to give their real name and address, etc... and the employer gets a copy of the form with the letter of inquiry from the state.)
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
mpweiher 9y ago
> act within their rights and don't drink the cool-aid? Drinking the cool-aid is generally enforced. I remember working with some Swedes, who brought with them the (to engineers and fellow europeans) refreshing northern honesty/cynicism. Well...suddenly, after a trip to South East Asia to talk to our outsourcers (who were, er, "less than 100% effective") he suddenly started gushing in the typical corporate speak about how amazing and wonderful everything was. All the engineers wondered what had happened to him. Two weeks later he was promoted to director.
- smsm42 9y ago
  Maybe he already knew he is going to be promoted? Usually my experience is these things actually happen (i.e. decided) a while before they are announced, and if he knew he is going to receive a major promotion of course he'd think everything is wonderful!
gervase 9y ago
It really, really depends on the company and a whole host of other factors. If you pushed a bug to prod, knocked out all of Australia, then went home and aren't answering your phone because it's after hours and you're not on call, I'm not going to be happy with you. (Not that we would normally push to prod right before going home, but to illustrate the point...) If you work 9-5, M-F, never cause any fires, and hit your milestones, then I'm perfectly satisfied with that. That's just me, though; I intentionally maintain a relatively balanced workplace. Other companies and managers will have different styles. That being said, don't underestimate the importance of likeability [0]; you'll be fighting against human nature and unconscious biases if you do. How that manifests (general friendliness, going to after-hours social events, helping others with tough tasks, etc) will vary by person and team. [0]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-likability-matters-more-at-work-1395788402 https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-likability-matters-more-at-...
- jackgolding 9y ago
  I guess what I want to understand is if for example you are a tech lead or PM and you "need" to deliver by a certain date and to achieve this you need others to work overtime - how can you do this? I think that is something I would struggle with as a manager or business owner, nearly every manager I know isn't in a position to offer anything for this service and a lot of employees I know who put in the hard yards for a sustained period of time don't get any financial/time reward for it...

QAPereo 9y ago

From what I’ve observed, the idea is to work in hell (edit: obviously hyperbole) until enough money is made to work on your own. Needless to say that doesn’t seem to be the majority experience. The carrot is money and security and the dream of fuck you money. The stick is being a code monkey who is still treated like shit, but who can’t even dream of early retirement and personal projects. It’s a shallow philosophy, but there it is. The willingness to take tons of shit from above, and the ability to rationalize the waste of talent seems to be what you’d expect from a glorified casino for billionaires. Variable-Ratio reward training will fuck you up. Edit: I would guess that fear plays a role too. I recall a poster here saying they wished they could change their circumstances, but they look at the guy delivering their pizza and feel terrified that could be them. Edit: Or a mod can just minimize this, but sadly it changes nothing, least of the the reality of your situation.

smsm42 9y ago
I'm not sure conditions in most tech companies are adequately described as "working in hell". I mean, the article above mentions "free cafeteria, gym, yoga rooms, and all night snack bars", and in companies like Google it goes way beyond that, plus salary that is way over the average... pretty much anywhere outside banking industry? plus vacations, medical coverage, 401k and other nice stuff - and then on top of that, you also get a small chance to be a millionaire. Not exactly how the hell looks like.
- kmicklas 9y ago
  They give you all that stuff to some degree to cover over how toxic the culture and job is otherwise. Leaving Google was the best decision I ever made despite the fact that I now get none of those things and make significantly less money.
- QAPereo 9y ago
  Ah yes... perks. Makes those endless late nights a bit less awful. Plus you get to work on such wonderful stuff! The Juicero team is probably still swollen with um... pride. Above average salary paired with wasaay above average cost of living and nightmare commutimg. Plus a chance at striking it rich which is somewhere between playing Powerball and the nickel slots. But hey, at least most of you love what you do, and wouldn’t choose to use your skills in a more productive way. I’m sure that a group who talks endlessly about FOSS doesn’t mind Google’s vision. Sure the FB team believes in privacy, but just one more pull on the slots! Edit: @Dang I disagree, and your dislike of my style stopped bothering me a while ago. So save your breath for threatening people with orders of magnitude more time here than me with bans, and then hilariously pleading with their sockpuppets to respect that ban. I am not impressed.

smsm42 9y ago

I've been in SV for a decade now and I am not observing anything cult-like. I haven't worked for companies like Google or Facebook or any other giant behemoths, so no idea how things are there, but in other places it's pretty far from a cult where I am. Of course, marketing sometimes goes a bit over the board, and each release of version 8.4 is the best thing that happened to humanity since v8.3 was released and before it's time to release v8.5. But that's kind of expected, nobody I know takes it as a literal truth. And of course there are mission statements that talk about improving human condition and expanding horizons and saving the world. Sometimes it happens, at least to a measure, sometimes it doesn't, but that's not usually what you're thinking the whole day about, and even not something you think about every week or every month. And of course (almost) each startup CEO thinks his (or her) startup is going to change the world, or at least some part of it. That's how you should think if you're getting into a startup, otherwise it's not worth the trouble, the stress and the extremely high chance of failure. Of course the CEO believes she (or he) found some special thing nobody thought of before and some unique vision nobody had before - otherwise how the startup could take off the ground at all? And really, describing giving up free gym, yoga class and cafeteria as "something horrible happening to you"... I can't even find adequate words to describe how wrong this is.

Karrot_Kream 9y ago
> Of course, marketing sometimes goes a bit over the board, and each release of version 8.4 is the best thing that happened to humanity since v8.3 was released and before it's time to release v8.5. But that's kind of expected, nobody I know takes it as a literal truth. > And of course (almost) each startup CEO thinks his (or her) startup is going to change the world, or at least some part of it. That's how you should think if you're getting into a startup, otherwise it's not worth the trouble, the stress and the extremely high chance of failure. I don't think this should be an "of course". This article highlights toxic tech culture, namely a culture found in tech that is toxic. Marketing is not specific to tech, nor are small businesses. Why does Uber tell me they're going to "make transportation as freely available as running water" but not Loreal's new shampoo? Why does the small chain of bike repair shops in my area, also taking the stress and high risk of starting their own business, not exhort about how their bike repair shop will change the world of bikes forever? This overboard marketing and out-of-touch mission statements are much more commonly found in tech than in elsewhere. This article discusses a culture formed by overboard marketing and out-of-touch mission statements and labels it as toxic. Moreover, there's an argument to be made about a field that oft labels itself as "meritocratic" relies on these hyperbolic forms of marketing and mission statements to do business, rather than a more traditional, "stodgy" business.

acchow 9y ago

Can you describe in what ways SV feels like Animal Farm? > The Orwellian mismatch between rhetoric and action feels like cult-like propaganda to me. Can you list out a few of these actions?

j4ship 9y ago
work life balance is double speak for : your life is your work an extreme cynical view , but that is the beauty of it , its hidden in plain sight. How can a company give indefinite vacation, only if it hires and prevays a culture of overwork? The type of people hired will never take that vacation. Im not right , but im not wrong. The point is "work life balance" and "unlimited vacation" are not clear ideas on the reality of the environments and for some they can be a rose colored glass over the true experience. SV is very much the benevolent dictator ... giving you everything you could ask for , just be its slave. Can a slave only be a slave for 10 years and leave? Can a job that pays over 6 figures feel like slavery? I answer yes to the latter. You are payed well , but you are not respected as a developer. This will only change when we become the heads of our industry and not the tools to be used by money men.
Karrot_Kream 9y ago
Maybe I should tell the (abridged) tale of XMPP. Once upon a time, XMPP was an open standard that allowed FB, Google, and independent clients federate at once. The reason Google and FB were able to become such popular messengers is because they allowed all sorts of clients to federate with them. This was the world of Pidgin, Trillian, GTalk, Adium, and others. Then Google and FB both closed off their XMPP support, citing overhead in maintaining a federated service. Facebook thought it was a better use of its resources to build a Snapchat clone named Slingshot. Google decided it was a better use of its resources to build a social network named Google+. Animal Farm: "Four legs good, two legs bad" Google: "Don't be evil" Animal Farm: "Four legs good, two legs better" Google: "You can make money without doing evil" [1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_evil#cite_note-GooglePhil-11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_evil#cite_note-Goog... In the old days, this was called Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.
- 9y ago