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Why do you say Rust is easier to start with than C or C++? [Disclaimer : i'm old enough to dream in K&R C and later ANSI C, and then C++, but am more than enth

Why do you say Rust is easier to start with than C or C++? [Disclaimer : i'm old enough to dream in K&R C and later ANSI C, and then C++, but am more than enthused about Rust, so a genuine question]

seba_dos1 9y ago
I would guess that a language in where the compiler holds your hand so you don't shoot yourself in the foot is probably by definition a bit easier than one that hides traps for you behind corner every now and then :)
- carlmr 9y ago
  While I generally agree with that sentiment, Rust's compiler is so hard to please that a lot of C/C++ developers find it hard to do it. I think for a beginner it's even harder. C is so small a language that you can learn it much quicker. The problems surface later on.
  - neikos 9y ago
    What do you mean by 'hard to please'? The joke about the compiler being some beast you need to sacrifice a goat to seems to put the blame on the wrong end of the computer imo. Unless what you are doing is not fit for what guarantees Rust gives you, the compiler should just be a crutch in case you missed a step.
    - carlmr 9y ago
      I thought the same until I actually tried Rust. The compiler will complain in a some places which are ok if you know what's happening. It was probably easier to implement the borrow checker that way. At the same time a lot of the error messages are very cryptic if you haven't seen them before. It is in that sense hard to please. A lot of this might become better with coming iterations though.
      - steveklabnik 9y ago
        Now, this is true in many senses, as it's inherently how static analysis works, but I've also had many experiences where someone joins one of our IRC channels, shows some code and says "hey the borrow checker won't let me do this thing that's totally safe" and then I or someone else replies "well, what about this?" to which the answer is "...... oh. yeah." This is virtually almost always from C++ programmers. It's hard to escape the mindset of languages we're used to! > At the same time a lot of the error messages are very cryptic You should file bugs! We care deeply about the legibility of error messages, and the whole --explain system is there to try and go above and beyond.
        carlmr 9y ago
        >You should file bugs! We care deeply about the legibility of error messages, and the whole --explain system is there to try and go above and beyond. Next time I do some Rust I will. I also need to check out that --explain system. I didn't see that when learning Rust.
        steveklabnik 9y ago
        Take a program that doesn't work, like this one: https://play.rust-lang.org/?gist=2c7b672c6a211e3ab2f3995e37d5a52a&version=stable https://play.rust-lang.org/?gist=2c7b672c6a211e3ab2f3995e37d... > error[E0384]: cannot assign twice to immutable variable `x` That E0384 is a link in the browser. Click it and you go to https://doc.rust-lang.org/error-index.html#E0384 https://doc.rust-lang.org/error-index.html#E0384 which has a longer version of this error. On the command line, you can run `rustc --explain E0384` and it'll print out the same text to the terminal.
        carlmr 9y ago
        Nice, thank you! I always Googled it until now.
  - Tade0 9y ago
    > While I generally agree with that sentiment, Rust's compiler is so hard to please that a lot of C/C++ developers find it hard to do it. I think for a beginner it's even harder. I think it's hard for those who carry "mindset-baggage" from C/C++. My first attempt at Rust was a failure mostly because I thought it was sort of a "weird C/C++".
    - carlmr 9y ago
      Mindset baggage is a valid criticism. However I think Rust is a lot noisier and less obvious about many things which you have to get accustomed to. It's a very different mindset baggage in Rust.
  - jlebrech 9y ago
    I guess even the most legible but slow C code is faster than the same code for javascript with all the speed tricks.
  - nspattak 9y ago
    I am so sick and tired of disgusting C code that I would argue that it is only easy to learn how to write a code in C that compiles but not to learn how to implement projects in C. In fact if I could, I would like that writing in C was prohibited by law to permit holders only, the jury being rob pike and richard stallman themselves!
tcoff91 9y ago
Perhaps he means the tooling for using emscripten with rust is superior, and easier to get set-up? (i'm not actually sure if it is, i've never tried it). I'm really excited about the future of rust and have really enjoyed writing a raytracer in it, but I don't see how it's an easier-to-use language than C or C++. Easier to write safe code in sure, but not easier to pick up for a newbie.
- bluejekyll 9y ago
  > the tooling for using emscripten with rust is superior emscripten is no longer required for Rust to target WASM. There is a new target of wasm32-unknown-unknown. This project gives you quick bootstrap instructions into WASM with Rust: https://github.com/koute/stdweb https://github.com/koute/stdweb Very quick to get started with, and the examples get you going quickly. I just used it yesterday (nothing fancy), and everything worked right out of the box.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
mden 9y ago
Maybe it's not easier to start depending on languages you are familiar with, but I think after the starting phase it gets easier by having standard libraries for common things like hashmaps, by having a much easier to configure build system, and by having a very solid package manager. Longer term into a project the actual language's features remove a lot of C or C++ snafus you can run into, though in fairness they also make certain common patterns obsolete which can be very frustrating until you get used to them.

Why do you say Rust is easier to start with than C or C++? [Disclaimer : i'm old enough to dream in K&R C and later ANSI C, and then C++, but am more than enthused about Rust, so a genuine question]

seba_dos1 9y ago

I would guess that a language in where the compiler holds your hand so you don't shoot yourself in the foot is probably by definition a bit easier than one that hides traps for you behind corner every now and then :)

carlmr 9y ago
While I generally agree with that sentiment, Rust's compiler is so hard to please that a lot of C/C++ developers find it hard to do it. I think for a beginner it's even harder. C is so small a language that you can learn it much quicker. The problems surface later on.
- neikos 9y ago
  What do you mean by 'hard to please'? The joke about the compiler being some beast you need to sacrifice a goat to seems to put the blame on the wrong end of the computer imo. Unless what you are doing is not fit for what guarantees Rust gives you, the compiler should just be a crutch in case you missed a step.
  - carlmr 9y ago
    I thought the same until I actually tried Rust. The compiler will complain in a some places which are ok if you know what's happening. It was probably easier to implement the borrow checker that way. At the same time a lot of the error messages are very cryptic if you haven't seen them before. It is in that sense hard to please. A lot of this might become better with coming iterations though.
    - steveklabnik 9y ago
      Now, this is true in many senses, as it's inherently how static analysis works, but I've also had many experiences where someone joins one of our IRC channels, shows some code and says "hey the borrow checker won't let me do this thing that's totally safe" and then I or someone else replies "well, what about this?" to which the answer is "...... oh. yeah." This is virtually almost always from C++ programmers. It's hard to escape the mindset of languages we're used to! > At the same time a lot of the error messages are very cryptic You should file bugs! We care deeply about the legibility of error messages, and the whole --explain system is there to try and go above and beyond.
      - carlmr 9y ago
        >You should file bugs! We care deeply about the legibility of error messages, and the whole --explain system is there to try and go above and beyond. Next time I do some Rust I will. I also need to check out that --explain system. I didn't see that when learning Rust.
        steveklabnik 9y ago
        Take a program that doesn't work, like this one: https://play.rust-lang.org/?gist=2c7b672c6a211e3ab2f3995e37d5a52a&version=stable https://play.rust-lang.org/?gist=2c7b672c6a211e3ab2f3995e37d... > error[E0384]: cannot assign twice to immutable variable `x` That E0384 is a link in the browser. Click it and you go to https://doc.rust-lang.org/error-index.html#E0384 https://doc.rust-lang.org/error-index.html#E0384 which has a longer version of this error. On the command line, you can run `rustc --explain E0384` and it'll print out the same text to the terminal.
        carlmr 9y ago
        Nice, thank you! I always Googled it until now.
- Tade0 9y ago
  > While I generally agree with that sentiment, Rust's compiler is so hard to please that a lot of C/C++ developers find it hard to do it. I think for a beginner it's even harder. I think it's hard for those who carry "mindset-baggage" from C/C++. My first attempt at Rust was a failure mostly because I thought it was sort of a "weird C/C++".
  - carlmr 9y ago
    Mindset baggage is a valid criticism. However I think Rust is a lot noisier and less obvious about many things which you have to get accustomed to. It's a very different mindset baggage in Rust.
- jlebrech 9y ago
  I guess even the most legible but slow C code is faster than the same code for javascript with all the speed tricks.
- nspattak 9y ago
  I am so sick and tired of disgusting C code that I would argue that it is only easy to learn how to write a code in C that compiles but not to learn how to implement projects in C. In fact if I could, I would like that writing in C was prohibited by law to permit holders only, the jury being rob pike and richard stallman themselves!

tcoff91 9y ago

Perhaps he means the tooling for using emscripten with rust is superior, and easier to get set-up? (i'm not actually sure if it is, i've never tried it). I'm really excited about the future of rust and have really enjoyed writing a raytracer in it, but I don't see how it's an easier-to-use language than C or C++. Easier to write safe code in sure, but not easier to pick up for a newbie.

bluejekyll 9y ago
> the tooling for using emscripten with rust is superior emscripten is no longer required for Rust to target WASM. There is a new target of wasm32-unknown-unknown. This project gives you quick bootstrap instructions into WASM with Rust: https://github.com/koute/stdweb https://github.com/koute/stdweb Very quick to get started with, and the examples get you going quickly. I just used it yesterday (nothing fancy), and everything worked right out of the box.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

mden 9y ago

Maybe it's not easier to start depending on languages you are familiar with, but I think after the starting phase it gets easier by having standard libraries for common things like hashmaps, by having a much easier to configure build system, and by having a very solid package manager. Longer term into a project the actual language's features remove a lot of C or C++ snafus you can run into, though in fairness they also make certain common patterns obsolete which can be very frustrating until you get used to them.