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And if you’re lucky you might have actual realizations instead of just adopting the ones society tells you to. Do kids think their parents are stupid because of

by jrs95 9y ago

And if you’re lucky you might have actual realizations instead of just adopting the ones society tells you to. Do kids think their parents are stupid because of genuine observation, or is it because we tell kids to think their parents are stupid?

stcredzero 9y ago
Mostly the latter.
- nostrademons 9y ago
  I'm not entirely sure of that. Kids have excellent bullshit detectors, because a.) they haven't been socialized to keep their mouth shut when they see bullshit and b.) they don't have incentives to keep their mouth shut when they see bullshit. (cf. Emperor's New Clothes) On one level kids think their parents are stupid because they don't have experience with the constraints their parents live under (eg. getting a job, keeping a job, putting a roof over your heads), but on another level the parents are stupid because they've let themselves internalize those constraints beyond what's rational (eg. working so hard that you're unhappy all the time and don't have time for the kids, not looking for another job when you hate your current one). I've seen a number of instances - mostly surrounding racism, classism, overwork, violence, corruption, or misaligned incentives - where kids will say something both profound and naive and I'll think to myself "Yes, you're absolutely right, and unfortunately humanity is filled with idiots."
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    Kids have excellent bullshit detectors, because a.) they haven't been socialized to keep their mouth shut when they see bullshit and b.) they don't have incentives to keep their mouth shut when they see bullshit. (cf. Emperor's New Clothes) Very true. This happened to me. However, what you don't get enough of in our culture, is that the new "truth" the kids take as a substitute is often another come-on which is crafted to appeal to a younger generation or an updated culture. You can see analogues for this in 19th century culture, but with the added benefit of hindsight. Various utopian and romantic movements from the 1800's and even in the early 20th century are these saccharine substitutes for truth. However, if you look at them closely and take them apart, you will find that they are based on some sort of conceit or assumption which falls apart under closer examination, or with the benefit of over a century of human and scientific progress. Marxism is a key example. Karl Marx's problem with the "accidental" is the unwarranted and demonstrably false assumption that emergent processes can't usefully regulate complex systems. Of course, Marx didn't have the benefit of a couple of centuries of continued development in biology and the benefit of computer science and game theory. Rousseau's "noble savage" is another such honeypot fiction that the 21st century Left is still plagued by in transmogrified form. "Yes, you're absolutely right, and unfortunately humanity is filled with idiots." Do you really think you can do a better job? Marxist intellectuals who became revolutionaries thought much the same. Their record in the 20th century speaks for itself.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > Kids have excellent bullshit detectors I don't think that's particularly true, moreover... > because a.) they haven't been socialized to keep their mouth shut when they see bullshit and b.) they don't have incentives to keep their mouth shut when they see bullshit. Neither of those indicate that they have excellent bullshit detectors, nor are they plausible reasons why they would do so; instead, those are reasons why “kids generally provide third parties with more transparent insights into the output of their own bullshit detectors than adults generally do”, but the fact that adults are more circumspect in announcing that they have detected bullshit than kids are does not mean that adults aren't fat better than kids at detecting bullshit. (Being circumspect is also defensive mechanism against bullshit; a bullshitter who knows that they have triggered your B.S. detector will fine tune their approach to in response.)
    - stcredzero 9y ago
      I don't think that's particularly true, In all societies, there are certain things you can't say and often some of these things are the truth, so sometimes people become so practiced at papering over such things, that they become confused about what the truth really is. Kids just don't have as much exposure to that. (Sometimes those there are things you have to say, which the society wishes were true, and people become so practiced at acting as if they're true, people even start to convince themselves.)

by jrs95 9y ago

stcredzero 9y ago

Mostly the latter.

nostrademons 9y ago
I'm not entirely sure of that. Kids have excellent bullshit detectors, because a.) they haven't been socialized to keep their mouth shut when they see bullshit and b.) they don't have incentives to keep their mouth shut when they see bullshit. (cf. Emperor's New Clothes) On one level kids think their parents are stupid because they don't have experience with the constraints their parents live under (eg. getting a job, keeping a job, putting a roof over your heads), but on another level the parents are stupid because they've let themselves internalize those constraints beyond what's rational (eg. working so hard that you're unhappy all the time and don't have time for the kids, not looking for another job when you hate your current one). I've seen a number of instances - mostly surrounding racism, classism, overwork, violence, corruption, or misaligned incentives - where kids will say something both profound and naive and I'll think to myself "Yes, you're absolutely right, and unfortunately humanity is filled with idiots."
- stcredzero 9y ago
  Kids have excellent bullshit detectors, because a.) they haven't been socialized to keep their mouth shut when they see bullshit and b.) they don't have incentives to keep their mouth shut when they see bullshit. (cf. Emperor's New Clothes) Very true. This happened to me. However, what you don't get enough of in our culture, is that the new "truth" the kids take as a substitute is often another come-on which is crafted to appeal to a younger generation or an updated culture. You can see analogues for this in 19th century culture, but with the added benefit of hindsight. Various utopian and romantic movements from the 1800's and even in the early 20th century are these saccharine substitutes for truth. However, if you look at them closely and take them apart, you will find that they are based on some sort of conceit or assumption which falls apart under closer examination, or with the benefit of over a century of human and scientific progress. Marxism is a key example. Karl Marx's problem with the "accidental" is the unwarranted and demonstrably false assumption that emergent processes can't usefully regulate complex systems. Of course, Marx didn't have the benefit of a couple of centuries of continued development in biology and the benefit of computer science and game theory. Rousseau's "noble savage" is another such honeypot fiction that the 21st century Left is still plagued by in transmogrified form. "Yes, you're absolutely right, and unfortunately humanity is filled with idiots." Do you really think you can do a better job? Marxist intellectuals who became revolutionaries thought much the same. Their record in the 20th century speaks for itself.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Kids have excellent bullshit detectors I don't think that's particularly true, moreover... > because a.) they haven't been socialized to keep their mouth shut when they see bullshit and b.) they don't have incentives to keep their mouth shut when they see bullshit. Neither of those indicate that they have excellent bullshit detectors, nor are they plausible reasons why they would do so; instead, those are reasons why “kids generally provide third parties with more transparent insights into the output of their own bullshit detectors than adults generally do”, but the fact that adults are more circumspect in announcing that they have detected bullshit than kids are does not mean that adults aren't fat better than kids at detecting bullshit. (Being circumspect is also defensive mechanism against bullshit; a bullshitter who knows that they have triggered your B.S. detector will fine tune their approach to in response.)
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    I don't think that's particularly true, In all societies, there are certain things you can't say and often some of these things are the truth, so sometimes people become so practiced at papering over such things, that they become confused about what the truth really is. Kids just don't have as much exposure to that. (Sometimes those there are things you have to say, which the society wishes were true, and people become so practiced at acting as if they're true, people even start to convince themselves.)