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It's interesting how little culture figures in to this conversation. It seems to me that the North and the South (Canada aside) are drastically different in way

It's interesting how little culture figures in to this conversation. It seems to me that the North and the South (Canada aside) are drastically different in ways that will really matter to a lot of people. I don't work at Amazon, but my family and I would not feel fully safe or comfortable living in Texas, Tennessee, Georgia or North Carolina.

gizmo385 9y ago
> my family and I would not feel fully safe or comfortable living in Texas, Tennessee, Georgia or North Carolina I'm a little surprised by this. You wouldn't feel safe? Why not?
- biohax2015 9y ago
  They are probably a minority. There is rampant racism in these states and many don’t even try to hide their discrimination.
  - lolsal 9y ago
    > rampant: flourishing or spreading unchecked. I have lived in the south for 33 years (in particular, one of these states mentioned) - if you think that racism is flourishing or spreading unchecked you are misinformed. It exists, but it's dying. Please stop spreading hyperbole like this.
    - welcome_dragon 9y ago
      Having lived in the South for the past 8 years and the North for ... Well many more ... I 100% agree with your statement. I've learned that people here (the South) are far more accepting and far less racist than up north.
    - tallanvor 9y ago
      Racism is still alive in the south, though, even if it's not as bad as people from more liberal areas think. However, I can certainly tell you that as a gay man, I do not expect that I will feel comfortable living in any southern state during my lifetime. I lasted 3 years in Raleigh before I had to get out (and that was long before the bathroom bill).
      - lolsal 9y ago
        This is really unfortunate. I worry it will take even longer for prejudice and intolerance to die in the south with this sort of attitude. I do try to understand your perspective - it's not your problem since you don't live in the south, so you aren't worried about it. For someone like me that grew up in the south and have seen the effort and changes in the last three decades, it hurts to see objectively false blanket statements about racism and other prejudices be repeated. It also hurts to see someone write off a region for good when so much has changed in the last 30 years. Yes intolerance still exists and if you're concerned about your safety it's only reasonable that you avoid it (I would). For full disclosure, I am a minority in Texas.
        mulmen 9y ago
        I am not from the south but I believe I understand your feeling and I certainly respect your desire to improve your homeland. On the other hand as an American that is from the rural northwest I was shocked by the overt racism I witnessed in the south. I am sure improvements have been made but the south still has a long way to go.
        tallanvor 9y ago
        Prejudice and intolerance is still my problem, because it's not limited to the south. If it was, we wouldn't have the embarrassment that is the current administration announcing a new "Conscience and Religious Freedom Division" to defend healthcare workers that object to having to do things like provide birth control, assist in sex change operations, care for HIV/AIDS patients, and will potentially even deny emergency care to LGBT people or other minorities that they claim they are obligated not to help due to their religious beliefs. But the problems of the south go even deeper than just prejudice against minority groups. Look at which states have increased the minimum wage, and which states expanded medicaid coverage. Look which states have taken the lead on requiring some amount of paid sick leave (only 7 states and DC so far, but at least it's starting). Southern states are among those that also strongly resist bail and sentencing reform, legalizing pot, and other initiatives to reduce inequality. If you think that you can make a difference in Texas by staying there, I think that's great, and I encourage you to do so. You're allowed to love where you live, even if you have to admit that it's not perfect. For me, though, Raleigh didn't have anything to tie me to the place and make me want to use my energy trying to change things there.
    - ForrestN 9y ago
      I think sometimes there's a tendency to conflate overt racism, like someone verbally abusing you using racial epithets, with racism in general. Racism still exists everywhere in the United States, but having grown up in the south, and based on the experiences of my spouse, who also grew up in the south, I can say quite confidently that "rampant" is no hyperbole. If you are visibly different, especially in a way that tends to be politicized, people will stare at you. They will treat you differently when you're a customer of their business. You will know that you can expect far less comfort from the police, and that you have to watch your back in case you happen to run into someone dangerous. This article helps to demonstrate experiences like ours: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/opinion/sunday/the-risks-of-traveling-while-queer.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/opinion/sunday/the-risks-... You can feel unsafe without actually being attacked. And you can actually see people, in real time, choose to send you signals that you are unsafe. When someone is staring at you in a gas station, this is often their intention. You know that they know that you know that you are unwelcome. Imagine any of these subtler experiences of racism or homophobia or transphobia, but applied over and over again, and the composite feeling of discomfort that arises. Again, trust isn't about the outlier cases. It's about how you feel, all the time. When we are traveling in the south, even as people born there, we can't completely relax until we're alone, in a hotel room or on an empty road. We don't think about it all the time, but the anxiety is always there. And it's not just frightening, it's sad. It's depressing to be reminded that you don't have the same freedoms and privileges that other people have. It's suffocating.
      - stevenwoo 9y ago
        I grew up in the South and there's the insidious presence of all the monuments and statues in public places and state houses of leaders of the slave states during the Civil War. Then all the public schools named after Jefferson Davis or Robert Lee or similar traitors. My high school history classes always emphasized the South was fighting for states' rights and their way of life, as if slavery was something honorable. The message is loud and clear of the institutional support for these attitudes.
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  The fear of other or whatever one wants to call it is pretty strong in rural areas, regardless of state, there just happen to be a lot more rural people in those states as reflected in the state legislative/executive results - anti gay, anti trans gender, anti immigrant laws in most of those states made the news the past few years. Those type of laws don't affect me, but I can see how if someone were affected by them or knew someone affected by them they would see those laws as announcements of intolerance for them or their loved ones. On the other hand if one is in favor of those type of laws, that might be an incentive to move there.
pzone 9y ago
All these locations are major cities, bright blue on the electoral map (or at least purple) and cosmopolitan. Get your FUD out of here - the South isn't a bunch of hicks and white supremacists.
- ForrestN 9y ago
  I'm from the vicinity of one of those cities, and my spouse is from another one. The idea that a "blue" place isn't subject to the larger culture of its state and region is, sadly, completely disconnected from reality. I'm not speculating, I'm describing a lived experience of visiting the south after moving away as an adult.
cthalupa 9y ago
The cities in these states are not that different from cities anywhere else. I would be very surprised if you faced any additional discrimination in Nashville or Dallas than you would wherever you are feeling is a safe place. By the same token, rural New York and California are extremely conservative and have much of the same issues you seem to be worried about with the South.
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  The rural/urban divide is present as you describe in every state, but the difference is in some of the states listed as undesirable for minorities, the rural people outnumber the urban people and filled the state legislature and executive political offices with bigots based on the anti-other laws/regulations and anti-urban regulations(preventing urban regions from making anti-bigot rules) that made national news from Texas and North Carolina. That sets the tone for the conversation, not how urban/rural areas are alike across the north/south.
  - cthalupa 9y ago
    Texas did not pass the bill I believe you are referring to. R's from blue states are just as capable of introducing such bills, and have in the past.
    - stevenwoo 9y ago
      Texas thought it was so important though they had a special session just for that bathroom bill. The state congressman who was standing in the way retired - he was going to be primaried by the Tea Party that is taking over anyway. Texas state government is pretty bad about trying to undo any progress the urban areas want to make. Can't limit fracking within city limits https://www.dallasnews.com/news/local-politics/2015/05/04/bill-to-limit-texas-cities-rules-on-fracking-heads-to-governor https://www.dallasnews.com/news/local-politics/2015/05/04/bi... Cities can't declare themselves sanctuary cities: https://www.texastribune.org/2017/05/07/abbott-signs-sanctuary-cities-bill/ https://www.texastribune.org/2017/05/07/abbott-signs-sanctua... Cities can't limit work for hire or rental apps like uber and airbnb due to similar laws the state legislature passed. No matter if you live in an urban area with a majority of like minded people, they are going to try to over rule your elected officials with the majority the rural areas hold in the state legislature in these states.

gizmo385 9y ago

> my family and I would not feel fully safe or comfortable living in Texas, Tennessee, Georgia or North Carolina I'm a little surprised by this. You wouldn't feel safe? Why not?

biohax2015 9y ago
They are probably a minority. There is rampant racism in these states and many don’t even try to hide their discrimination.
- lolsal 9y ago
  > rampant: flourishing or spreading unchecked. I have lived in the south for 33 years (in particular, one of these states mentioned) - if you think that racism is flourishing or spreading unchecked you are misinformed. It exists, but it's dying. Please stop spreading hyperbole like this.
  - welcome_dragon 9y ago
    Having lived in the South for the past 8 years and the North for ... Well many more ... I 100% agree with your statement. I've learned that people here (the South) are far more accepting and far less racist than up north.
  - tallanvor 9y ago
    Racism is still alive in the south, though, even if it's not as bad as people from more liberal areas think. However, I can certainly tell you that as a gay man, I do not expect that I will feel comfortable living in any southern state during my lifetime. I lasted 3 years in Raleigh before I had to get out (and that was long before the bathroom bill).
    - lolsal 9y ago
      This is really unfortunate. I worry it will take even longer for prejudice and intolerance to die in the south with this sort of attitude. I do try to understand your perspective - it's not your problem since you don't live in the south, so you aren't worried about it. For someone like me that grew up in the south and have seen the effort and changes in the last three decades, it hurts to see objectively false blanket statements about racism and other prejudices be repeated. It also hurts to see someone write off a region for good when so much has changed in the last 30 years. Yes intolerance still exists and if you're concerned about your safety it's only reasonable that you avoid it (I would). For full disclosure, I am a minority in Texas.
      - mulmen 9y ago
        I am not from the south but I believe I understand your feeling and I certainly respect your desire to improve your homeland. On the other hand as an American that is from the rural northwest I was shocked by the overt racism I witnessed in the south. I am sure improvements have been made but the south still has a long way to go.
      - tallanvor 9y ago
        Prejudice and intolerance is still my problem, because it's not limited to the south. If it was, we wouldn't have the embarrassment that is the current administration announcing a new "Conscience and Religious Freedom Division" to defend healthcare workers that object to having to do things like provide birth control, assist in sex change operations, care for HIV/AIDS patients, and will potentially even deny emergency care to LGBT people or other minorities that they claim they are obligated not to help due to their religious beliefs. But the problems of the south go even deeper than just prejudice against minority groups. Look at which states have increased the minimum wage, and which states expanded medicaid coverage. Look which states have taken the lead on requiring some amount of paid sick leave (only 7 states and DC so far, but at least it's starting). Southern states are among those that also strongly resist bail and sentencing reform, legalizing pot, and other initiatives to reduce inequality. If you think that you can make a difference in Texas by staying there, I think that's great, and I encourage you to do so. You're allowed to love where you live, even if you have to admit that it's not perfect. For me, though, Raleigh didn't have anything to tie me to the place and make me want to use my energy trying to change things there.
  - ForrestN 9y ago
    I think sometimes there's a tendency to conflate overt racism, like someone verbally abusing you using racial epithets, with racism in general. Racism still exists everywhere in the United States, but having grown up in the south, and based on the experiences of my spouse, who also grew up in the south, I can say quite confidently that "rampant" is no hyperbole. If you are visibly different, especially in a way that tends to be politicized, people will stare at you. They will treat you differently when you're a customer of their business. You will know that you can expect far less comfort from the police, and that you have to watch your back in case you happen to run into someone dangerous. This article helps to demonstrate experiences like ours: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/opinion/sunday/the-risks-of-traveling-while-queer.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/opinion/sunday/the-risks-... You can feel unsafe without actually being attacked. And you can actually see people, in real time, choose to send you signals that you are unsafe. When someone is staring at you in a gas station, this is often their intention. You know that they know that you know that you are unwelcome. Imagine any of these subtler experiences of racism or homophobia or transphobia, but applied over and over again, and the composite feeling of discomfort that arises. Again, trust isn't about the outlier cases. It's about how you feel, all the time. When we are traveling in the south, even as people born there, we can't completely relax until we're alone, in a hotel room or on an empty road. We don't think about it all the time, but the anxiety is always there. And it's not just frightening, it's sad. It's depressing to be reminded that you don't have the same freedoms and privileges that other people have. It's suffocating.
    - stevenwoo 9y ago
      I grew up in the South and there's the insidious presence of all the monuments and statues in public places and state houses of leaders of the slave states during the Civil War. Then all the public schools named after Jefferson Davis or Robert Lee or similar traitors. My high school history classes always emphasized the South was fighting for states' rights and their way of life, as if slavery was something honorable. The message is loud and clear of the institutional support for these attitudes.
stevenwoo 9y ago
The fear of other or whatever one wants to call it is pretty strong in rural areas, regardless of state, there just happen to be a lot more rural people in those states as reflected in the state legislative/executive results - anti gay, anti trans gender, anti immigrant laws in most of those states made the news the past few years. Those type of laws don't affect me, but I can see how if someone were affected by them or knew someone affected by them they would see those laws as announcements of intolerance for them or their loved ones. On the other hand if one is in favor of those type of laws, that might be an incentive to move there.

pzone 9y ago

All these locations are major cities, bright blue on the electoral map (or at least purple) and cosmopolitan. Get your FUD out of here - the South isn't a bunch of hicks and white supremacists.

ForrestN 9y ago
I'm from the vicinity of one of those cities, and my spouse is from another one. The idea that a "blue" place isn't subject to the larger culture of its state and region is, sadly, completely disconnected from reality. I'm not speculating, I'm describing a lived experience of visiting the south after moving away as an adult.

cthalupa 9y ago

The cities in these states are not that different from cities anywhere else. I would be very surprised if you faced any additional discrimination in Nashville or Dallas than you would wherever you are feeling is a safe place. By the same token, rural New York and California are extremely conservative and have much of the same issues you seem to be worried about with the South.

stevenwoo 9y ago
The rural/urban divide is present as you describe in every state, but the difference is in some of the states listed as undesirable for minorities, the rural people outnumber the urban people and filled the state legislature and executive political offices with bigots based on the anti-other laws/regulations and anti-urban regulations(preventing urban regions from making anti-bigot rules) that made national news from Texas and North Carolina. That sets the tone for the conversation, not how urban/rural areas are alike across the north/south.
- cthalupa 9y ago
  Texas did not pass the bill I believe you are referring to. R's from blue states are just as capable of introducing such bills, and have in the past.
  - stevenwoo 9y ago
    Texas thought it was so important though they had a special session just for that bathroom bill. The state congressman who was standing in the way retired - he was going to be primaried by the Tea Party that is taking over anyway. Texas state government is pretty bad about trying to undo any progress the urban areas want to make. Can't limit fracking within city limits https://www.dallasnews.com/news/local-politics/2015/05/04/bill-to-limit-texas-cities-rules-on-fracking-heads-to-governor https://www.dallasnews.com/news/local-politics/2015/05/04/bi... Cities can't declare themselves sanctuary cities: https://www.texastribune.org/2017/05/07/abbott-signs-sanctuary-cities-bill/ https://www.texastribune.org/2017/05/07/abbott-signs-sanctua... Cities can't limit work for hire or rental apps like uber and airbnb due to similar laws the state legislature passed. No matter if you live in an urban area with a majority of like minded people, they are going to try to over rule your elected officials with the majority the rural areas hold in the state legislature in these states.