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> Streetscape enhancements add value to an area and are associated with higher rents and the attraction of new businesses. In addition there is good evidence to

> Streetscape enhancements add value to an area and are associated with higher rents and the attraction of new businesses. In addition there is good evidence to show that improving walking and cycling environments raises private property values by significant amounts. Nobody doubts this. Actually everybody sees this as the problem. I love NYC, but i also hate it. There is a price for density: crime, trash, prices, overcrowding, urban decay, poverty and homelessness, etc.

reaperducer 9y ago
> There is a price for density: crime, trash, prices, overcrowding, urban decay, poverty and homelessness, etc. One does not necessarily lead to the other. Urban life is far more complex than that. There are lots of places, even in New York with high density, but low crime, poverty, etc...
- jnordwick 9y ago
  And they are probably very expensive. I didn't say they all occur everywhere.
jimmywanger 9y ago
> There is a price for density: crime, trash, prices, overcrowding, urban decay, poverty and homelessness, etc. Density without strict oversight, perhaps. Hong Kong, Macau, and Singapore seem to be counterexamples.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  Wow, so all we have to do is accept totalitarian rule? Where do I sign?
  - bduerst 9y ago
    Can you help me understand how Singapore is totalitarian?
    - jimmywanger 9y ago
      Lee Kuan Yew is known to have strict authoritarian and disciplinarian policies. He basically forged Singapore from a couple square miles of swampy marshland with no natural water or resources into what is is today. It's no longer that way, but it's been molded that way that it's a Brave New World sort of life. It's quite strange over there. Very clean and safe, but there are tons of extremely strict laws.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      Do you have another description for a society where you can't buy chewing gum, caning is a punishment meted out by courts, and making a video criticizing Lee Kwan Yew can land you in jail? Where there is no freedom of association and the press freedom ratings are consistently poor? I don't think the idea that Singapore is an authoritarian state is even controversial.
  - jimmywanger 9y ago
    Would you rather live in Singapore or El Salvador? Especially if you have a family that depends on you.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      As if those were the only choices. I'd rather stay where I am than live in either place.
      - jimmywanger 9y ago
        Well where you are is presumably better than El Salvador when it come to terms of crime and wealth, and better than Singapore in terms of freedom. If you were currently living in El Salvador with a family, would you move to Singapore for freedom? Conversely, if you were currently living in Singapore with a family, would you move to Singapore for safety and money?
        emodendroket 9y ago
        The two places are so different I don't know what the point of the comparison is. It's not like you turn up the authoritarianism meter and it becomes a safe place to live. Many countries combine authoritarianism with high rates of violent crime and poverty.
        jimmywanger 9y ago
        > Many countries combine authoritarianism with high rates of violent crime and poverty. Well, in your original point you said "all I have to do is sign up for totalitarian rule?" mockingly, equating the two. They're not the same, but many people would choose totalitarian prosperity over democratic poverty.
        emodendroket 9y ago
        Because the post I'm replying to made the same equation, referring to "strict control" and naming places under such rule. In a discussion about what to do about US suburbs I don't think El Salvador, a poor country whose civil war ended in 1992, is even the least bit relevant.
oftenwrong 9y ago
Density doesn't necessarily lead to those things. For example, Tokyo is very dense, but has a low level of crime, and is quite clean. Poverty is found in urban, suburban and rural areas. This same site has a good series of articles on suburban poverty: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2016/12/6/best-of-2016-suburban-poverty https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2016/12/6/best-of-2016-s...
- emodendroket 9y ago
  Yes, there's the one example everyone loves to trot out. Japan is different from the US in a lot of ways and we can't just wave a wand and turn New York into Tokyo (or Cleveland into Sapporo, for that matter).
  - kuschku 9y ago
    You can, but that magic wand is enforcing a culture of collectivism. If, from early age on, children learn to take on responsibility for society, this is possible. The US culture of individualism at any price, not giving a single fuck about any other human being, is a significant factor in this.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      I don't think that is all there is to it. What about a generally more homogeneous population (not just ethnically but also in terms of income) and essentially single-party rule? A greater acceptance of deficit spending? A much smaller land mass in the first place? The age of the infrastructure? Plenty of other questions.
  - trgn 9y ago
    In NYC you certainly could. It takes banning cars for personal transport and expand the subway. The city would improve tremendously. Not quite like waving a wand, but doesn't require tearing down and rebuilding either.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
andys627 9y ago
These things aren't from density. Suburban auto dependent homogeneity comes with another bag of crappy things - isolation, socioeconomic echo chamber, inneficient infrastructure (eg think about how many linear feet of pipe for peripheral homes vs more centrally located). Walkable doesn't have to be dense. Most of our cities that existed before the 50s have(or had) low density walkable cores.
matt4077 9y ago
> crime, trash, prices, overcrowding, urban decay, poverty and homelessness, etc. I fail to see how that description actually fits today's New York, or most other large US cities. It may have been true in the 80s. But just the change over time proves that these aren't necessary consequences of high density. You may also wish to take a walk around Paris, Venice, or Barcelona to see how attractive urban environments can be[0]. Yes, some people may always prefer rural life. But those currently living in Suburbia, USA have probably chosen the worst of all worlds. [0]: Random street view link: https://goo.gl/maps/t96mDMV48rx https://goo.gl/maps/t96mDMV48rx
- baud147258 9y ago
  For Paris, you can also find ugly parts of urban environments, with the worst in the urban sprawl around the city.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  I work in downtown Boston, one of the fancier parts of one of the country's most expensive cities. There are tons of panhandlers, you encounter the smell of urine quite often, litter is everywhere, the city is served by filthy trains, etc. The stuff about high prices is definitely true (hell, this article touts it as a benefit!) and there are plenty of other parts of the city that are considerably more run-down. I don't see what the guy is saying that's wrong.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  > But those currently living in Suburbia, USA have probably chosen the worst of all worlds. Not even close. There are parts of the inner city that make the suburbs look like heaven. There are rural areas where the lack of opportunity makes the suburbs look like the promised land. Urban environments can be fine. But they can also be (at least in places) horrible. And even when their fine, they're not for everybody. Some people just don't do well with crowds.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    And in fact it does offer "the best of both worlds" in a sense: you can work in a dense city with plenty of jobs without having to live there. That's the reason suburbs began to exist essentially as soon as trains made them possible.
trgn 9y ago
You can have dense towns that feel spacious and verdant as well. Downtown Savannah, Charleston, many streetcar suburbs in older cities, many small college towns, ... USA has phenomenally good examples of dense but pleasant urban environments. NYC is an extreme. It's actually pretty awful in the ways you describe. Now image you keep the city but subtract all the cars for personal transportation. It'd feel so much more open, quiet, airy, accomodating.
electricslpnsld 9y ago
> I love NYC, but i also hate it. There is a price for density: crime, trash, prices, overcrowding, urban decay, poverty and homelessness, etc. These read as mostly outdated stereotypes of NYC from 80s and 90s. NYC now ranks as the safest major city in the United States, by most measures.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  But he is positing these as things that happen in every city. New York is better than it was but out definitely has not made these issues go away altogether.
- briandear 9y ago
  NYC has the largest homeless population in the US. You are still more likely to have your bike stolen in NYC than you are in Houston. “Safe” doesn’t mean “less crime” it means less violent crime. Overcrowding — definitely still true in NYC. Urban decay? Still there. Have a visit to the Bronx or Queens sometime.
  - electricslpnsld 9y ago
    > “Safe” doesn’t mean “less crime” it means less violent crime. Let's take a look at Houston vs NYC. In 2017 NYC had 286 homicides [1], while Houston had 269 [2]. If we divide out by population (8.5 million in NYC, 2.3 million in Houston), we get: 0.000033647058824 murders per capita in NYC 0.000116956521739 murders per capita in Houston So you are roughly 3.5 time as likely to get killed in Houston vs. in NYC. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/27/nyregion/new-york-city-crime-2017.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/27/nyregion/new-york-city-cr... [2] https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Houston-murders-drop-11-percent-in-2017-12477945.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/... > Have a visit to the Bronx or Queens sometime. I'm from Long Island City -- I know a thing or two about Queens. :)
- jnordwick 9y ago
  I live there for the most part (currently in CA until March).
IWeldMelons 9y ago
NYC is a low crime city.

reaperducer 9y ago

> There is a price for density: crime, trash, prices, overcrowding, urban decay, poverty and homelessness, etc. One does not necessarily lead to the other. Urban life is far more complex than that. There are lots of places, even in New York with high density, but low crime, poverty, etc...

jnordwick 9y ago
And they are probably very expensive. I didn't say they all occur everywhere.

jimmywanger 9y ago

> There is a price for density: crime, trash, prices, overcrowding, urban decay, poverty and homelessness, etc. Density without strict oversight, perhaps. Hong Kong, Macau, and Singapore seem to be counterexamples.

emodendroket 9y ago
Wow, so all we have to do is accept totalitarian rule? Where do I sign?
- bduerst 9y ago
  Can you help me understand how Singapore is totalitarian?
  - jimmywanger 9y ago
    Lee Kuan Yew is known to have strict authoritarian and disciplinarian policies. He basically forged Singapore from a couple square miles of swampy marshland with no natural water or resources into what is is today. It's no longer that way, but it's been molded that way that it's a Brave New World sort of life. It's quite strange over there. Very clean and safe, but there are tons of extremely strict laws.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    Do you have another description for a society where you can't buy chewing gum, caning is a punishment meted out by courts, and making a video criticizing Lee Kwan Yew can land you in jail? Where there is no freedom of association and the press freedom ratings are consistently poor? I don't think the idea that Singapore is an authoritarian state is even controversial.
- jimmywanger 9y ago
  Would you rather live in Singapore or El Salvador? Especially if you have a family that depends on you.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    As if those were the only choices. I'd rather stay where I am than live in either place.
    - jimmywanger 9y ago
      Well where you are is presumably better than El Salvador when it come to terms of crime and wealth, and better than Singapore in terms of freedom. If you were currently living in El Salvador with a family, would you move to Singapore for freedom? Conversely, if you were currently living in Singapore with a family, would you move to Singapore for safety and money?
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        The two places are so different I don't know what the point of the comparison is. It's not like you turn up the authoritarianism meter and it becomes a safe place to live. Many countries combine authoritarianism with high rates of violent crime and poverty.
        jimmywanger 9y ago
        > Many countries combine authoritarianism with high rates of violent crime and poverty. Well, in your original point you said "all I have to do is sign up for totalitarian rule?" mockingly, equating the two. They're not the same, but many people would choose totalitarian prosperity over democratic poverty.
        emodendroket 9y ago
        Because the post I'm replying to made the same equation, referring to "strict control" and naming places under such rule. In a discussion about what to do about US suburbs I don't think El Salvador, a poor country whose civil war ended in 1992, is even the least bit relevant.

oftenwrong 9y ago

Density doesn't necessarily lead to those things. For example, Tokyo is very dense, but has a low level of crime, and is quite clean. Poverty is found in urban, suburban and rural areas. This same site has a good series of articles on suburban poverty: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2016/12/6/best-of-2016-suburban-poverty https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2016/12/6/best-of-2016-s...

emodendroket 9y ago
Yes, there's the one example everyone loves to trot out. Japan is different from the US in a lot of ways and we can't just wave a wand and turn New York into Tokyo (or Cleveland into Sapporo, for that matter).
- kuschku 9y ago
  You can, but that magic wand is enforcing a culture of collectivism. If, from early age on, children learn to take on responsibility for society, this is possible. The US culture of individualism at any price, not giving a single fuck about any other human being, is a significant factor in this.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    I don't think that is all there is to it. What about a generally more homogeneous population (not just ethnically but also in terms of income) and essentially single-party rule? A greater acceptance of deficit spending? A much smaller land mass in the first place? The age of the infrastructure? Plenty of other questions.
- trgn 9y ago
  In NYC you certainly could. It takes banning cars for personal transport and expand the subway. The city would improve tremendously. Not quite like waving a wand, but doesn't require tearing down and rebuilding either.
  - emodendroket 9y ago

andys627 9y ago

These things aren't from density. Suburban auto dependent homogeneity comes with another bag of crappy things - isolation, socioeconomic echo chamber, inneficient infrastructure (eg think about how many linear feet of pipe for peripheral homes vs more centrally located). Walkable doesn't have to be dense. Most of our cities that existed before the 50s have(or had) low density walkable cores.

matt4077 9y ago

> crime, trash, prices, overcrowding, urban decay, poverty and homelessness, etc. I fail to see how that description actually fits today's New York, or most other large US cities. It may have been true in the 80s. But just the change over time proves that these aren't necessary consequences of high density. You may also wish to take a walk around Paris, Venice, or Barcelona to see how attractive urban environments can be[0]. Yes, some people may always prefer rural life. But those currently living in Suburbia, USA have probably chosen the worst of all worlds. [0]: Random street view link: https://goo.gl/maps/t96mDMV48rx https://goo.gl/maps/t96mDMV48rx

baud147258 9y ago
For Paris, you can also find ugly parts of urban environments, with the worst in the urban sprawl around the city.
emodendroket 9y ago
I work in downtown Boston, one of the fancier parts of one of the country's most expensive cities. There are tons of panhandlers, you encounter the smell of urine quite often, litter is everywhere, the city is served by filthy trains, etc. The stuff about high prices is definitely true (hell, this article touts it as a benefit!) and there are plenty of other parts of the city that are considerably more run-down. I don't see what the guy is saying that's wrong.
AnimalMuppet 9y ago
> But those currently living in Suburbia, USA have probably chosen the worst of all worlds. Not even close. There are parts of the inner city that make the suburbs look like heaven. There are rural areas where the lack of opportunity makes the suburbs look like the promised land. Urban environments can be fine. But they can also be (at least in places) horrible. And even when their fine, they're not for everybody. Some people just don't do well with crowds.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  And in fact it does offer "the best of both worlds" in a sense: you can work in a dense city with plenty of jobs without having to live there. That's the reason suburbs began to exist essentially as soon as trains made them possible.

trgn 9y ago

You can have dense towns that feel spacious and verdant as well. Downtown Savannah, Charleston, many streetcar suburbs in older cities, many small college towns, ... USA has phenomenally good examples of dense but pleasant urban environments. NYC is an extreme. It's actually pretty awful in the ways you describe. Now image you keep the city but subtract all the cars for personal transportation. It'd feel so much more open, quiet, airy, accomodating.

electricslpnsld 9y ago

> I love NYC, but i also hate it. There is a price for density: crime, trash, prices, overcrowding, urban decay, poverty and homelessness, etc. These read as mostly outdated stereotypes of NYC from 80s and 90s. NYC now ranks as the safest major city in the United States, by most measures.

emodendroket 9y ago
But he is positing these as things that happen in every city. New York is better than it was but out definitely has not made these issues go away altogether.
briandear 9y ago
NYC has the largest homeless population in the US. You are still more likely to have your bike stolen in NYC than you are in Houston. “Safe” doesn’t mean “less crime” it means less violent crime. Overcrowding — definitely still true in NYC. Urban decay? Still there. Have a visit to the Bronx or Queens sometime.
- electricslpnsld 9y ago
  > “Safe” doesn’t mean “less crime” it means less violent crime. Let's take a look at Houston vs NYC. In 2017 NYC had 286 homicides [1], while Houston had 269 [2]. If we divide out by population (8.5 million in NYC, 2.3 million in Houston), we get: 0.000033647058824 murders per capita in NYC 0.000116956521739 murders per capita in Houston So you are roughly 3.5 time as likely to get killed in Houston vs. in NYC. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/27/nyregion/new-york-city-crime-2017.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/27/nyregion/new-york-city-cr... [2] https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Houston-murders-drop-11-percent-in-2017-12477945.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/... > Have a visit to the Bronx or Queens sometime. I'm from Long Island City -- I know a thing or two about Queens. :)
jnordwick 9y ago
I live there for the most part (currently in CA until March).

IWeldMelons 9y ago

NYC is a low crime city.