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Ah, we have the Adam Smith article again. As somebody interested in these for many years, there is a periodic rewriting of this article. The beats are always

by nickik 9y ago

Ah, we have the Adam Smith article again. As somebody interested in these for many years, there is a periodic rewriting of this article. The beats are always the same, Smith not actually like evil neoliberals (whoever that is) think. He also wrote 'The Theory of Moral Sentiments' and so on. Admittedly this is by far the best one I have seen in many years. Nothing in the article is really wrong, and it is completely correct the same analysis Smith used can often be used against people on both sides of politics. I would tell people not only to focus on Smith but rather see him in a broader context with Hume, Ferguson and there English predecessors. Overall we need to value individual freedom of choice both socially and economically, we need to strongly protect human rights, the political power must be limited and so on. Free people working for themselves, their family or friend, their community can achieve things that are beneficial for all if these interactions take place in such a framework. > Thatcher’s restructuring of the economy was as much a product of the ‘spirit of system’ as any Soviet strategy While this critic is certainty true we must also realize that if you accept Smith and the Scottish ideas, we need to find some way back to the ideas of individual liberty and limited power of government, specially government and business working together. So there is still a very, vary large difference between going towards such a system or to go towards the Soviet union. Here is a good podcast about Adam Smith: > http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2011/06/otteson_on_adam.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2011/06/otteson_on_adam.htm...

phaemon 9y ago
From Paul Sagar's bio (the author of this article): "i am lecturer in political theory in the department of political economy, king’s college london i completed my doctorate at the university of cambridge (2014), after receiving an ma in intellectual history and the history of political thought from the university of london (2010), and a ba in politics, philosophy, and economics from the university of oxford (2008). from 2014-17 i was junior research fellow at king’s college, cambridge. my doctoral thesis centred upon the political thought of david hume in the context of british debates over the nature of human sociability and moral psychology. i extended this research in my recently completed book, the opinion of mankind: sociability and the state from hobbes to smith, published with princeton university press. alongside my work in the history of political thought i also research contemporary political theory. i am in the early stages of researching a second monograph, which will explore adam smith’s political thought as grounded in his views of history and commercial society." (the original is in all caps, hence the lack of capitalisation) From you: "Nothing in the article is really wrong" Well, thanks for that. I'm going to take a wild guess that the author knows a hell of a lot more about Adam Smith than you do, even if you have been "interested in these for many years". And I think that applies doubly to the other critics above.
- 0xCMP 9y ago
  Hey, this is a discussion forum, so can we please not appeal to authority here just to say (in so many words) "I don't care what your opinion on this linked article is because he's an expert and you're not." What's the point of discussion if you simply say "Oh, but they know more so just shut up"?
  - mikojan 9y ago
    There's nothing wrong with an appeal to authority in response to an appeal to authority.
    - ionised 9y ago
      Why not? How does a logical fallacy become okay if it is in response to the same logical fallacy?
      - rosser 9y ago
        Appeals to authority aren't necessarily fallacious, if the authority being cited is actually an authority.
        benbreen 9y ago
        Thanks for pointing this out. I appreciate the sentiment behind critiquing a blind reliance on authority but lately online I've seen a lot of knee jerk rejections of any authority which I find counter-productive at best. Surely we can agree that our presence on an online discussion forum doesn't obviate the fact that some people who have spent years professionally researching a topic are likely to have a stronger claim to knowing about it than those who haven't.
- nickik 9y ago
  Everybody has a bias, his interpretation where it goes away from his words does so too. His own opinions color his view of Smith, as does mine. My point was that his text was not wrong, but it played to people who interpret it in certain ways. A naive reading of his article would lead one to conclude that Treacher and Stalin were the same in the eyes of Smith. I was just point out that just because they are the same in this one aspect of his thought, it is still a very large and important difference in the content. There is no question if Smith would prefer a more market oriented framework with stronger individual liberty then we have now. I mean the state spends around ~50% of GDP in the developed world and has major regulatory powers in every aspect of the economy. I think he would admit that as well. Most scholars who work in the tradition of Smith tend to agree on that. You will not that the podcast (and book) I linked are are equally authoritative as he is.
specialist 9y ago
Favorite bumper sticker: "JESUS SAVE ME (From all your followers)". Just like with the beatitudes, if Freedom Market™ cultists read Adam Smith for themselves, maybe we'd have somewhat more productive discourse. FWIW, what I gleened from this "rewriting" is Adam's warnings about 'spirit of the system'. Rings true. As a recovering methodologist and self-proclaimed agent of change, humiliated by repeated failures (a la Alistair Cockburn), I wish younger me had grasped this sooner. http://alistair.cockburn.us/Characterizing+people+as+non-linear%2c+first-order+components+in+software+development http://alistair.cockburn.us/Characterizing+people+as+non-lin...

by nickik 9y ago

phaemon 9y ago

From Paul Sagar's bio (the author of this article): "i am lecturer in political theory in the department of political economy, king’s college london i completed my doctorate at the university of cambridge (2014), after receiving an ma in intellectual history and the history of political thought from the university of london (2010), and a ba in politics, philosophy, and economics from the university of oxford (2008). from 2014-17 i was junior research fellow at king’s college, cambridge. my doctoral thesis centred upon the political thought of david hume in the context of british debates over the nature of human sociability and moral psychology. i extended this research in my recently completed book, the opinion of mankind: sociability and the state from hobbes to smith, published with princeton university press. alongside my work in the history of political thought i also research contemporary political theory. i am in the early stages of researching a second monograph, which will explore adam smith’s political thought as grounded in his views of history and commercial society." (the original is in all caps, hence the lack of capitalisation) From you: "Nothing in the article is really wrong" Well, thanks for that. I'm going to take a wild guess that the author knows a hell of a lot more about Adam Smith than you do, even if you have been "interested in these for many years". And I think that applies doubly to the other critics above.

0xCMP 9y ago
Hey, this is a discussion forum, so can we please not appeal to authority here just to say (in so many words) "I don't care what your opinion on this linked article is because he's an expert and you're not." What's the point of discussion if you simply say "Oh, but they know more so just shut up"?
- mikojan 9y ago
  There's nothing wrong with an appeal to authority in response to an appeal to authority.
  - ionised 9y ago
    Why not? How does a logical fallacy become okay if it is in response to the same logical fallacy?
    - rosser 9y ago
      Appeals to authority aren't necessarily fallacious, if the authority being cited is actually an authority.
      - benbreen 9y ago
        Thanks for pointing this out. I appreciate the sentiment behind critiquing a blind reliance on authority but lately online I've seen a lot of knee jerk rejections of any authority which I find counter-productive at best. Surely we can agree that our presence on an online discussion forum doesn't obviate the fact that some people who have spent years professionally researching a topic are likely to have a stronger claim to knowing about it than those who haven't.
nickik 9y ago
Everybody has a bias, his interpretation where it goes away from his words does so too. His own opinions color his view of Smith, as does mine. My point was that his text was not wrong, but it played to people who interpret it in certain ways. A naive reading of his article would lead one to conclude that Treacher and Stalin were the same in the eyes of Smith. I was just point out that just because they are the same in this one aspect of his thought, it is still a very large and important difference in the content. There is no question if Smith would prefer a more market oriented framework with stronger individual liberty then we have now. I mean the state spends around ~50% of GDP in the developed world and has major regulatory powers in every aspect of the economy. I think he would admit that as well. Most scholars who work in the tradition of Smith tend to agree on that. You will not that the podcast (and book) I linked are are equally authoritative as he is.

specialist 9y ago

Favorite bumper sticker: "JESUS SAVE ME (From all your followers)". Just like with the beatitudes, if Freedom Market™ cultists read Adam Smith for themselves, maybe we'd have somewhat more productive discourse. FWIW, what I gleened from this "rewriting" is Adam's warnings about 'spirit of the system'. Rings true. As a recovering methodologist and self-proclaimed agent of change, humiliated by repeated failures (a la Alistair Cockburn), I wish younger me had grasped this sooner. http://alistair.cockburn.us/Characterizing+people+as+non-linear%2c+first-order+components+in+software+development http://alistair.cockburn.us/Characterizing+people+as+non-lin...