5 ms·

> never met a neoliberal "Neoliberal" is typically a term of abuse, but I've seen a movement (from econ professors to /r/neoliberal) to appropriate as a term f

> never met a neoliberal "Neoliberal" is typically a term of abuse, but I've seen a movement (from econ professors to /r/neoliberal) to appropriate as a term for centrist radical pragmatism. These self-proclaimed neoliberals are very progressive socially and (claim to, at least) support any policies that have actual firm evidence for it. Of course, this makes them pro-trade and pro-"globalism".

sprafa 9y ago
there's plenty of evidence that globalism has not worked out for substantial parts of the population in most developed countries.
- briandear 9y ago
  There is also substantial evidence that it has. The poor in America are richer and have higher living standards than the poor of less-globalized places. Absolute poverty in developed countries is far lower than at any possible by in history. In fact the same could be said for absolute poverty globally. And that, is a direct result of globalization.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    Was it globalism that made them richer? They weren't already richer pre-globalism (say, 15 to 20 years ago)?
  - YPCrumble 9y ago
    > The poor in America are richer and have higher living standards than the poor of less-globalized places. This is complete nonsense and makes you sound like someone who should take some time volunteering with America's poor. Clearly you have no idea what poverty is like and should earn some perspective. Are you trying to say that hunger in America is any different from hunger in a "less globalized place"? How so? How about homelessness? Is that different in America vs. other places? How about dying of disease because you don't have health care? Is that different in America somehow?
    - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
      Extreme. The poor can refer to the bottom quintile of socioeconomic class. We don't have to jump to the bottom tenth of a percent. In that view, the comment is valid. The bottom earners in America earn more than most people on the planet. And have better infrastructure.
      - YPCrumble 9y ago
        Google "what percent of Americans face hunger" and get back to me about one tenth of one percent. That is a number you made up in your head just now. Extreme might be saying we should compare America to the poorest nations on earth. If you compare America to its peers the average American earns less, and the country has worse infrastructure.
        JoeAltmaier 9y ago
        Ok, done. 15% are 'food insecure' which is a broad range including 'skip a meal sometimes'. 15% worldwide live on less than 1.25 a day. So again, comparing America's poor with the world is like night and day.
        YPCrumble 9y ago
        I'll take your response as agreeing with me that saying that one tenth of one percent of Americans are hungry was completely and utterly wrong :).
        JoeAltmaier 9y ago
        If only that had been said. It was the trifecta "hungry, homeless and diseased" that was referenced.
      - da_chicken 9y ago
        The bottom quintile had a mean household income of just $12,000 in 2016 (https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2017/09/19/u-s-household-incomes-a-50-year-perspective https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2017/09/1...). I'm struggling to understand how such a household could afford to pay rent on $1,000 a month, let alone afford "luxuries" such as doctor visits. And, yes, they would qualify for SNAP assistance, but in my (second hand) experience it's not much and decreases faster than income increases (i.e., and increase in monthly salary of $x/mo results in a loss of food assistance greater than $x/mo).
  - RobertoG 9y ago
    >"Absolute poverty in developed countries is far lower than at any possible by in history. In fact the same could be said for absolute poverty globally. And that, is a direct result of globalization." Actually that it's not true. Absolute poverty better global numbers are due mainly to China. A little also to India. For the rest, it could be argue that they are equal or, in some cases worst. You could argue that China have benefited from globalization, and, in a way is true. Except that their strategy is almost the opposite of the strategy recommended by the champions of globalization (IMF, etc..)
  - wu-ikkyu 9y ago
    What do you mean by "absolute poverty"? While the proportion of people living in poverty may have been getting lower, the absolute number of people living in poverty has never been higher. 3 billion people live in poverty. This is the same as the total global population in 1960. https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts/11-facts-about-global-poverty https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts/11-facts-about-global-p...
    - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
      The UN defines "absolute poverty" as: A condition characterised by severe deprivation of basic human needs, including food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and information. It depends not only on income but also on access to services. The percentage of people at this level has been falling for a long time and is now less than 10% of the global population, nowhere near 3 billion.
- nickik 9y ago
  Such an easy statement to make. The false assumption indeed is that if the US had not engaged in these polices people would now be better off. Saying 'its not perfect' is easy, showing that your alternative path would have been better is hard, and there is little evidence for it. Thus most economist don't believe it.
- jbooth 9y ago
  > globalism has not worked out for substantial parts of the population in most developed countries Pardon my language, but that's crap. Every developed country has seen yuuuuge profits from globalism. What, not all of it trickled down you say? That's a distribution problem. It's not a problem with globalization. Shrinking the pie in order to pursue a more fair distribution is some ass-backwards, rube-goldberg-machine nonsense. Take the profits, fix the distribution. Invest in infrastructure while you're at it.
  - ionised 9y ago
    What gives you the impression the 'distribution problem' isn't inherently linked with the deregulation that enabled these massively increased profits that only find their way to a select few?
    - jbooth 9y ago
      'Inherently linked' is a misnomer. We're in the driver's seat here, we're not at the mercy of the weather. If we can set our trade policy, then we can set our tax policy and budget. Raise taxes on the rich (short of making globalization a net loss to them), fund infra projects that put lots of blue-collar people to work, and in a generation we've got a bunch of cool shit on top of increased mobility and a better consumer economy. Everyone wins.
- simonh 9y ago
  There is overwhelming evidence that Globalisation has turned many undeveloped countries into developed ones. Do people in newly developed countries somehow not count as people in developed countries? Just look at China. That's over a billion people in a country transformed from a hopeless basket case in the 70s into a global superpower and economic powerhouse. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/17/aid-trade-reduce-acute-poverty https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/17/aid-trade-re... https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/World-Poverty-Since-1820.png https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/World-...
YPCrumble 9y ago
> support any policies that have actual firm evidence for it A Neoliberal candidate lost the last US election because people from states whose middle class has been hollowed out by free markets and deregulation voted against them. I haven't seen them take that as "firm evidence" that economic policies that ignore important indicators of social well-being into account, like the level of inequality. Today's Neoliberal believes that if you take everything from a poor person except their (now cheaper) imported TV and iPhone, they will be happy...because the GDP and stock market are growing. "The pie is bigger, so even though your slice is a smaller percentage, you're still better off," they say. It's too bad that they seem to think there is firm evidence that people are robots who would believe that nonsense.
- nickik 9y ago
  Perfect example of how to use 'neoliberal' as a term of abuse with a nice strawman layer on top.
- thanatropism 9y ago
  This reads to me like: "globalization hasn't solved the problem of economic jealousy". That it sucks to see someone become 200X richer whereas you have only become 40% richer. (But richer nonetheless). I mean, sure. It hasn't fixed sexual jealousy either. Witness the impressive phenomenon of "incel rage" on the internet: not rage at pressing personal need unmet, but at the relative sexual deprivation that results from the fact that attractive women will usually prefer attractive men. This is what you find at the bottom of Pikettyism: economic incel rage.

sprafa 9y ago

there's plenty of evidence that globalism has not worked out for substantial parts of the population in most developed countries.

briandear 9y ago
There is also substantial evidence that it has. The poor in America are richer and have higher living standards than the poor of less-globalized places. Absolute poverty in developed countries is far lower than at any possible by in history. In fact the same could be said for absolute poverty globally. And that, is a direct result of globalization.
- mistermann 9y ago
  Was it globalism that made them richer? They weren't already richer pre-globalism (say, 15 to 20 years ago)?
- YPCrumble 9y ago
  > The poor in America are richer and have higher living standards than the poor of less-globalized places. This is complete nonsense and makes you sound like someone who should take some time volunteering with America's poor. Clearly you have no idea what poverty is like and should earn some perspective. Are you trying to say that hunger in America is any different from hunger in a "less globalized place"? How so? How about homelessness? Is that different in America vs. other places? How about dying of disease because you don't have health care? Is that different in America somehow?
  - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
    Extreme. The poor can refer to the bottom quintile of socioeconomic class. We don't have to jump to the bottom tenth of a percent. In that view, the comment is valid. The bottom earners in America earn more than most people on the planet. And have better infrastructure.
    - YPCrumble 9y ago
      Google "what percent of Americans face hunger" and get back to me about one tenth of one percent. That is a number you made up in your head just now. Extreme might be saying we should compare America to the poorest nations on earth. If you compare America to its peers the average American earns less, and the country has worse infrastructure.
      - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
        Ok, done. 15% are 'food insecure' which is a broad range including 'skip a meal sometimes'. 15% worldwide live on less than 1.25 a day. So again, comparing America's poor with the world is like night and day.
        YPCrumble 9y ago
        I'll take your response as agreeing with me that saying that one tenth of one percent of Americans are hungry was completely and utterly wrong :).
        JoeAltmaier 9y ago
        If only that had been said. It was the trifecta "hungry, homeless and diseased" that was referenced.
    - da_chicken 9y ago
      The bottom quintile had a mean household income of just $12,000 in 2016 (https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2017/09/19/u-s-household-incomes-a-50-year-perspective https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2017/09/1...). I'm struggling to understand how such a household could afford to pay rent on $1,000 a month, let alone afford "luxuries" such as doctor visits. And, yes, they would qualify for SNAP assistance, but in my (second hand) experience it's not much and decreases faster than income increases (i.e., and increase in monthly salary of $x/mo results in a loss of food assistance greater than $x/mo).
- RobertoG 9y ago
  >"Absolute poverty in developed countries is far lower than at any possible by in history. In fact the same could be said for absolute poverty globally. And that, is a direct result of globalization." Actually that it's not true. Absolute poverty better global numbers are due mainly to China. A little also to India. For the rest, it could be argue that they are equal or, in some cases worst. You could argue that China have benefited from globalization, and, in a way is true. Except that their strategy is almost the opposite of the strategy recommended by the champions of globalization (IMF, etc..)
- wu-ikkyu 9y ago
  What do you mean by "absolute poverty"? While the proportion of people living in poverty may have been getting lower, the absolute number of people living in poverty has never been higher. 3 billion people live in poverty. This is the same as the total global population in 1960. https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts/11-facts-about-global-poverty https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts/11-facts-about-global-p...
  - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
    The UN defines "absolute poverty" as: A condition characterised by severe deprivation of basic human needs, including food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and information. It depends not only on income but also on access to services. The percentage of people at this level has been falling for a long time and is now less than 10% of the global population, nowhere near 3 billion.
nickik 9y ago
Such an easy statement to make. The false assumption indeed is that if the US had not engaged in these polices people would now be better off. Saying 'its not perfect' is easy, showing that your alternative path would have been better is hard, and there is little evidence for it. Thus most economist don't believe it.
jbooth 9y ago
> globalism has not worked out for substantial parts of the population in most developed countries Pardon my language, but that's crap. Every developed country has seen yuuuuge profits from globalism. What, not all of it trickled down you say? That's a distribution problem. It's not a problem with globalization. Shrinking the pie in order to pursue a more fair distribution is some ass-backwards, rube-goldberg-machine nonsense. Take the profits, fix the distribution. Invest in infrastructure while you're at it.
- ionised 9y ago
  What gives you the impression the 'distribution problem' isn't inherently linked with the deregulation that enabled these massively increased profits that only find their way to a select few?
  - jbooth 9y ago
    'Inherently linked' is a misnomer. We're in the driver's seat here, we're not at the mercy of the weather. If we can set our trade policy, then we can set our tax policy and budget. Raise taxes on the rich (short of making globalization a net loss to them), fund infra projects that put lots of blue-collar people to work, and in a generation we've got a bunch of cool shit on top of increased mobility and a better consumer economy. Everyone wins.
simonh 9y ago
There is overwhelming evidence that Globalisation has turned many undeveloped countries into developed ones. Do people in newly developed countries somehow not count as people in developed countries? Just look at China. That's over a billion people in a country transformed from a hopeless basket case in the 70s into a global superpower and economic powerhouse. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/17/aid-trade-reduce-acute-poverty https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/17/aid-trade-re... https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/World-Poverty-Since-1820.png https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/World-...

YPCrumble 9y ago

> support any policies that have actual firm evidence for it A Neoliberal candidate lost the last US election because people from states whose middle class has been hollowed out by free markets and deregulation voted against them. I haven't seen them take that as "firm evidence" that economic policies that ignore important indicators of social well-being into account, like the level of inequality. Today's Neoliberal believes that if you take everything from a poor person except their (now cheaper) imported TV and iPhone, they will be happy...because the GDP and stock market are growing. "The pie is bigger, so even though your slice is a smaller percentage, you're still better off," they say. It's too bad that they seem to think there is firm evidence that people are robots who would believe that nonsense.

nickik 9y ago
Perfect example of how to use 'neoliberal' as a term of abuse with a nice strawman layer on top.
thanatropism 9y ago
This reads to me like: "globalization hasn't solved the problem of economic jealousy". That it sucks to see someone become 200X richer whereas you have only become 40% richer. (But richer nonetheless). I mean, sure. It hasn't fixed sexual jealousy either. Witness the impressive phenomenon of "incel rage" on the internet: not rage at pressing personal need unmet, but at the relative sexual deprivation that results from the fact that attractive women will usually prefer attractive men. This is what you find at the bottom of Pikettyism: economic incel rage.