4 ms·

I can't help but think that the California bullet train is solving the wrong problem. How much would it cost to extend BART into the Central Valley? And for t

by curtis 9y ago

I can't help but think that the California bullet train is solving the wrong problem. How much would it cost to extend BART into the Central Valley? And for that matter, extend BART all the way around San Francisco Bay? And can you do that for less than 60 billion dollars? And what kind of ridership could such a system attract?

skybrian 9y ago
BART is already at capacity and I don't think you can make it faster or more comfortable than a bus.
niftich 9y ago
A lot. It's also not a good use of money, as BART has an unusual track gauge, strange engineering decisions, and is operationally and mechanically incompatible with other commonly deployed rail systems. Not to mention, even with BART fulfilling a strange role between an in-city rapid transit and far-exurb commuter rail, extending lines further out from the operating core comes with issues around trainset supply and capacity allocations in congested areas, like the Oakland Wye, the Mission Street Subway, or the Transbay Tube. It's far more likely to "extend" fringes of the system with other modes that can then operate independently, like the eBART [1], ACE, or the Capitol Corridor, or even a bus line. Extending the BART entirely around the western side of the bay won't happen, disproportionately due to the city of Atherton [2]. It's also silly, considering Caltrain fulfills a very similar role in transit to what BART would bring to the table, along the identical corridor. I once wrote [3][4] about why the geography of the current transit options in the Bay are unfortunate, and single mode of transit completing the entire circle would do little to alleviate the problem that so much of transit around the Bay is already around this circle. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/eBART https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/eBART [2] http://sfist.com/2016/07/11/atherton_wealthy_will_still_maybe_t.php http://sfist.com/2016/07/11/atherton_wealthy_will_still_mayb... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12282756#12283335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12282756#12283335 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14277421#14278045 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14277421#14278045
- deleted 9y ago
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spike021 9y ago
As far as I know expanding BART past Millbrae failed long ago because of peninsula communities not wanting it in their backyard (I guess NIMBY-ism..).
inferiorhuman 9y ago
> And can you do that for less than 60 billion dollars? Doubtful. Look at the cost per station (e.g. the half billion dollar cable car to the Oakland airport) and cost per mile (e.g. Warm Springs extension). Then look at the mismanagement (they still haven't gotten the new cars to work right) and that BART train control is at capacity and can't handle additional system expansion. Or take a look at eBART -- even BART is self-aware enough to know how expensive it is and thus the BART board is going through with a diesel extension instead of bringing the mainline BART to the boonies.
azernik 9y ago
At those distances, BART speed is unacceptable.

by curtis 9y ago

skybrian 9y ago

BART is already at capacity and I don't think you can make it faster or more comfortable than a bus.

niftich 9y ago

A lot. It's also not a good use of money, as BART has an unusual track gauge, strange engineering decisions, and is operationally and mechanically incompatible with other commonly deployed rail systems. Not to mention, even with BART fulfilling a strange role between an in-city rapid transit and far-exurb commuter rail, extending lines further out from the operating core comes with issues around trainset supply and capacity allocations in congested areas, like the Oakland Wye, the Mission Street Subway, or the Transbay Tube. It's far more likely to "extend" fringes of the system with other modes that can then operate independently, like the eBART [1], ACE, or the Capitol Corridor, or even a bus line. Extending the BART entirely around the western side of the bay won't happen, disproportionately due to the city of Atherton [2]. It's also silly, considering Caltrain fulfills a very similar role in transit to what BART would bring to the table, along the identical corridor. I once wrote [3][4] about why the geography of the current transit options in the Bay are unfortunate, and single mode of transit completing the entire circle would do little to alleviate the problem that so much of transit around the Bay is already around this circle. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/eBART https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/eBART [2] http://sfist.com/2016/07/11/atherton_wealthy_will_still_maybe_t.php http://sfist.com/2016/07/11/atherton_wealthy_will_still_mayb... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12282756#12283335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12282756#12283335 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14277421#14278045 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14277421#14278045

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

spike021 9y ago

As far as I know expanding BART past Millbrae failed long ago because of peninsula communities not wanting it in their backyard (I guess NIMBY-ism..).

inferiorhuman 9y ago

> And can you do that for less than 60 billion dollars? Doubtful. Look at the cost per station (e.g. the half billion dollar cable car to the Oakland airport) and cost per mile (e.g. Warm Springs extension). Then look at the mismanagement (they still haven't gotten the new cars to work right) and that BART train control is at capacity and can't handle additional system expansion. Or take a look at eBART -- even BART is self-aware enough to know how expensive it is and thus the BART board is going through with a diesel extension instead of bringing the mainline BART to the boonies.

azernik 9y ago

At those distances, BART speed is unacceptable.