7 ms·

From the article, it sounds like the biggest obstacles are "land buys" and "delays relating to land buys". We need to strengthen eminent domain for transit pro

From the article, it sounds like the biggest obstacles are "land buys" and "delays relating to land buys". We need to strengthen eminent domain for transit projects so that we don't end up wasting tons of money appeasing corrupt landowners trying to hit the jackpot.

noobiemcfoob 9y ago
No, eminent domain is already a questionable practice of screwing over the individual in the name of the collective. The state should never be able to simply co-opt private ownership just for "reasons".
- beat 9y ago
  I hate this argument. "Property", as in land ownership, does not exist outside of the State. You "own" land only by the consent of society. Conceptually, land ownership is inseparable from the State.
  - patricius 9y ago
    Only if you equate society and State, which I don’t. But do you believe that anything is made morally right when the State does it, e.g., confiscating property?
    - beat 9y ago
      The State is not the exact equivalent of society in general, but there's enough overlap to interchange them in most arguments. And you say "do you believe anything is made morally right when the State does it", but what you mean is "do you believe everything is morally right when the State does it". So you're turning bad phrasing into a bad argument. I can think that some things, even most things that the State does are good, without being universal. This includes eminent domain, which is a social good but must be applied carefully, on a case-by-case basis. Absolutism is the second core failing of libertarianism, after the absurd ideas of "natural rights".
      - patricius 9y ago
        Sorry, not a native English speaker. What the State does depends on which State. You would probably agree that what the State does in Venezuela is atrocious, but of course pales in comparison to what State has done historically in other countries. So by what principle do you judge whether a particular thing the State does is good or bad?
        beat 9y ago
        You're still looking for a universal criteria, and I am not going to give you one. Absolutism is a bad thing, in software and in society. States that behave atrociously toward their citizens tend to fall victim to revolution, sooner or later. Constitutional democracies, where "consent of the governed" has some real teeth, tend to be stable and avoid violent revolutions, because the need for social change can be handled via the ballot box. But in terms of State injustice, we're talking about matters of degree, not absolutes. If you're saying that any injustice invalidates the State, you fail, because as long as the State is working pretty well for the majority (as it usually does), then the complaints of the few will just be seen as complaining, not cause for revolution. Hence, eminent domain. It works pretty well for most people, who see direct benefit in terms of, say, new transportation systems.
        patricius 9y ago
        By denouncing absolutism, you are being absolutist yourself ;-) Okay, so if the absense of State would prove to work for the majority of people (which seems to be your criterion), you would support a State-free society?
        beat 9y ago
        I'm pretty familiar with historic and modern anarchist thought. In theory, I would support (and prefer) a State-free society. In practice, I don't see it as viable, especially at this point in history. That said, a State-free society would necessarily be a property-free society. We need the State in order to have the records and the courts to resolve disputes over property ownership.
  - Cyberdog 9y ago
    Um, no. Me and mine is me and mine, regardless of what a government may think. And if you try to take or cause harm to me and mine, I have natural right to stop it from happening, regardless of the presence or non-presence of a government. I cannot fathom disagreeing with anything more than I disagree with your post.
    - QAPereo 9y ago
      Do you at least acknowledge the reality of how laughable your “natural right” to resist would look against even a minute fraction of the state’s power?
      - sounds 9y ago
        Here in this nation of the United States, we claim that the state derives its power from the consent of the governed. It's a novel concept, really. Obviously, if you like the idea of a powerful nation-state, you can try any number of other experiments, elsewhere. Those nations do not even try to veneer their actions with the consent of their populace.
        QAPereo 9y ago
        I think you’re taking my acknowledgement of reality to be an endorsement of it. You can’t hope to change anything if you’re living in a fantasy. The reality is that the government of “this here nation” can roll over you like you never existed. Want that to change? I do.
        sounds 9y ago
        Sorry, I was responding to your assessment of the situation as "laughable." I'm not laughing. Neither are you, right?
        beat 9y ago
        "Consent of the governed" means consent of society in general, not the consent of every individual to every action of the State. Society has long been okay with eminent domain. When things become unacceptable, we can elect legislators to change the laws and make them acceptable again. I don't hear a cry to end eminent domain in our elections, or see anyone in Congress making any effort in that direction. That's consent of the governed.
  - antishatter 9y ago
    Strong ownership laws are a fundamental requirement of a State that is deemed worthy of investment. Why would anyone bother if the government could just take all your shit without compensation.
    - beat 9y ago
      Eminent domain doesn't happen without compensation. It's done at fair market value, almost always settled by the courts, that don't have a political interest in the outcome. It doesn't mean take your land without compensation. It means take your land whether you like it or not, for fair market compensation.
  - Helmet 9y ago
    I don't understand how an American can manage this thought. It runs in the face of every stated ideal and philosophical underpinning of this dear republic. I'll refer you to the concept of natural rights, Locke, Paine, the Deceleration of the Independence, the Bill of Rights and the rest of the Constitution, and the entirety of classical liberal philosophy.
    - beat 9y ago
      I don't buy the idea of "natural rights" in general. That doesn't mean I think constitutional democracy is a bad idea. It's just a good idea for different reasons. Believing that the concept of owning property is inseparable from a government that defines property and resolves property disputes doesn't make me un-American. Sheesh.
      - taurath 9y ago
        The argument is absurd, because anyone more powerful than you can and will take your property by force unless you have the backing of a society.
    - yongjik 9y ago
      The Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights were written when land was one virtually unlimited resource in the US. Because it was sparsely populated (even more sparsely than a few centuries before that), and most of its inhabitants simply didn't matter. Let's stop pretending that the 18th century understanding of society transcends time just because this nation happened to be founded at that particular era.
    - phil248 9y ago
      So does the lack of universal voting rights for a couple hundred years. Sometimes old ideas are wrong and should be mocked an then ignored.
      - Helmet 9y ago
        The lack of universal voting rights, as well as slavery, existed despite what I mentioned, not because of it. The Declaration of Independence is quite unequivocal: ...all men are created equal...endowed..with certain unalienable rights... All you have shown is that we as people are flawed, even when the truth is right there in front of us.
  - RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago
    Actually it kind of does. Even in the animal world, an animal will mark its territory and defend that territory against encroachment. Humans would do the same thing, except now we have outsourced the violence to the state. Instead of peeing on trees to mark our property, the state keeps a registry of property owners. Instead of physically fighting with intruders, we call the law enforcement arm of the state. The concept of property or territory you control exists apart from the state.
    - beat 9y ago
      But now you're not talking about a "right", but merely a biological imperative. Nothing that separates humans from, say, spiders. And then your "natural right" to property extends no farther than your ability to defend it from someone bigger and meaner than you. I can shoot you, and then your land becomes mine, by "natural right". Is this really the hill you want to die on?
      - RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago
        I was not addressing "rights", but that the concept of "property" exists independently of the state.
        jbooth 9y ago
        It really doesn't in regards to land in modern society, though. Ownership of land is quite literally a deed on file with the government. Feudal society, maybe.
        azernik 9y ago
        Not even in feudal society. That "deed on file" was originally a relationship with the sovereign lord (usually the king) who actually "owned" the land. In fact, ownership in Anglophone countries is still referred to as "fee simple", derived from "fief"; you hold the land from your Lord the state, under a form of tenure that happens not to include any feudal obligations ("simple").
        9y ago
- dasil003 9y ago
  This attitude is why public transportation in this country is third-world level, and why all our projects cost an order of magnitude than they do in the rest of the developed world.
  - workthrowaway27 9y ago
    Is eminent domain used widely in other countries infrastructure projects? I think part of the issue might be that the US is very large, esp. compared to European countries with better transportation systems.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  The mere concept of enforcible private ownership of land is invented by the State. To be honest, this would be easier to do if we had Land Value tax, making all california land be worth a fraction of what it is today.
  - sounds 9y ago
    I claim that once I have completed whatever processes are required to claim the land as mine, it remains mine until I consent otherwise. If I have to put up fences, pay down a mortgage, file a deed at a title company, etc. then those requirements are disclosed beforehand. After that the land is mine, I will defend it as mine. Various states have discovered how difficult eminent domain is to fully enforce. The "little old lady" is often tougher than anybody. (I will ignore any arguments that start with "property taxes," because it distracts from the point.)
    - conanbatt 9y ago
      > I claim that once I have completed whatever processes are required to claim the land as mine, it remains mine until I consent otherwise. I reject that claim altogether because any land that the State gave you, the State took from someone else, or from nature. And who gave the State the authority to own nature? > After that the land is mine, I will defend it as mine. Various states have discovered how difficult eminent domain is to fully enforce. The "little old lady" is often tougher than anybody. Its hard to politically enforce domestically, but bear in mind that if it were a serious risk to the state, it would take very little effort to kill everyone and take the land. The capacity of the state to do that is beyond any doubt.
- taurath 9y ago
  Property hoarding/rent-seeking is screwing over the collective in favor of the individual. They are at least paid at or above market rate. Private ownership only exists in the framework of a society, and sometimes the needs of the society as a whole are more important than that of the individual. Otherwise we wouldn’t need a military or borders.
dmitrygr 9y ago
I did not realize that lack of desire for playing along with suddenly relocating from my land cheaply makes me corrupt. Learn something new every day.
- dominotw 9y ago
  yea what does "corrupt landowner" even mean?
TallGuyShort 9y ago
Yes, when I look at a government project being massively over budget, it's the people who are legally compelled to give up their land for the project to be successful that I look at and ask myself, "how can we be more forceful with these corrupt people?"
- aaron_m04 9y ago
  Sarcasm?
moduspol 9y ago
> From the article, it sounds like the biggest obstacles are "land buys" and "delays relating to land buys". So far, right? If you're having trouble acquiring the land, you've still got plenty of hurdles before you've got something built. If the actual problem is incompetence or inefficiency, this is just the first sign of more to come.
ovao 9y ago
It's not clear to me how you arrived so quickly to the conclusion that these obstacles are a consequence of "money-appeasing corrupt landowners trying to hit the jackpot". While it's possible that's the case, it's also entirely possible that the initial estimates for the cost of land purchases were simply inaccurate.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  Its a self full-filling prophecy. Now that you know the budget will expand 50%, your leverage only increases, meaning you can ask for more before eminent domain is used and thus increases budget costs, etc.
Cyberdog 9y ago
Okay. Let's start this new strengthened eminent domain policy with your land.
antishatter 9y ago
"appeasing corrupt landowners trying to hit the jackpot" is a strong claim considering the government is stepping in and forcing people to sell land that has been in families for generations. For you to so brazenly say it's the right of the state to take it and not adequately compensate people who use land as a source of income (via agriculture) and that we should strengthen the governments ability to do so has virtually no place in this discussion and it is a disgusting and ignorant stance on the matter. The state already does it's best to go after the central valley folks with high taxes and regulations paid for by coastal elites who are too wealthy to be negatively affected, do we really need to now steal their land?
megaman22 9y ago
It's always easier to steal other people's property, especially if you have them by the short-hairs. In other contexts, this would be called extortion. There's something I profoundly don't understand about someone who would seriously advocate for things like eminent domain or estate taxes.
- BRAlNlAC 9y ago
  I profoundly don't understand how someone can seriously advocate against estate tax. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
wahern 9y ago
The cost is unlikely a legal issue. In California eminent domain powers are strong and the adjudication process usually swift. The cost is likely part of evolving political calculus--project developers paying out more than the courts would require as a strategy to relieve political pressure. The political backlash against HSR is greater than expected and growing. HSR is likely paying out more money to fragment and quiet opposition in the Central Valley.

noobiemcfoob 9y ago

No, eminent domain is already a questionable practice of screwing over the individual in the name of the collective. The state should never be able to simply co-opt private ownership just for "reasons".

beat 9y ago
I hate this argument. "Property", as in land ownership, does not exist outside of the State. You "own" land only by the consent of society. Conceptually, land ownership is inseparable from the State.
- patricius 9y ago
  Only if you equate society and State, which I don’t. But do you believe that anything is made morally right when the State does it, e.g., confiscating property?
  - beat 9y ago
    The State is not the exact equivalent of society in general, but there's enough overlap to interchange them in most arguments. And you say "do you believe anything is made morally right when the State does it", but what you mean is "do you believe everything is morally right when the State does it". So you're turning bad phrasing into a bad argument. I can think that some things, even most things that the State does are good, without being universal. This includes eminent domain, which is a social good but must be applied carefully, on a case-by-case basis. Absolutism is the second core failing of libertarianism, after the absurd ideas of "natural rights".
    - patricius 9y ago
      Sorry, not a native English speaker. What the State does depends on which State. You would probably agree that what the State does in Venezuela is atrocious, but of course pales in comparison to what State has done historically in other countries. So by what principle do you judge whether a particular thing the State does is good or bad?
      - beat 9y ago
        You're still looking for a universal criteria, and I am not going to give you one. Absolutism is a bad thing, in software and in society. States that behave atrociously toward their citizens tend to fall victim to revolution, sooner or later. Constitutional democracies, where "consent of the governed" has some real teeth, tend to be stable and avoid violent revolutions, because the need for social change can be handled via the ballot box. But in terms of State injustice, we're talking about matters of degree, not absolutes. If you're saying that any injustice invalidates the State, you fail, because as long as the State is working pretty well for the majority (as it usually does), then the complaints of the few will just be seen as complaining, not cause for revolution. Hence, eminent domain. It works pretty well for most people, who see direct benefit in terms of, say, new transportation systems.
        patricius 9y ago
        By denouncing absolutism, you are being absolutist yourself ;-) Okay, so if the absense of State would prove to work for the majority of people (which seems to be your criterion), you would support a State-free society?
        beat 9y ago
        I'm pretty familiar with historic and modern anarchist thought. In theory, I would support (and prefer) a State-free society. In practice, I don't see it as viable, especially at this point in history. That said, a State-free society would necessarily be a property-free society. We need the State in order to have the records and the courts to resolve disputes over property ownership.
- Cyberdog 9y ago
  Um, no. Me and mine is me and mine, regardless of what a government may think. And if you try to take or cause harm to me and mine, I have natural right to stop it from happening, regardless of the presence or non-presence of a government. I cannot fathom disagreeing with anything more than I disagree with your post.
  - QAPereo 9y ago
    Do you at least acknowledge the reality of how laughable your “natural right” to resist would look against even a minute fraction of the state’s power?
    - sounds 9y ago
      Here in this nation of the United States, we claim that the state derives its power from the consent of the governed. It's a novel concept, really. Obviously, if you like the idea of a powerful nation-state, you can try any number of other experiments, elsewhere. Those nations do not even try to veneer their actions with the consent of their populace.
      - QAPereo 9y ago
        I think you’re taking my acknowledgement of reality to be an endorsement of it. You can’t hope to change anything if you’re living in a fantasy. The reality is that the government of “this here nation” can roll over you like you never existed. Want that to change? I do.
        sounds 9y ago
        Sorry, I was responding to your assessment of the situation as "laughable." I'm not laughing. Neither are you, right?
      - beat 9y ago
        "Consent of the governed" means consent of society in general, not the consent of every individual to every action of the State. Society has long been okay with eminent domain. When things become unacceptable, we can elect legislators to change the laws and make them acceptable again. I don't hear a cry to end eminent domain in our elections, or see anyone in Congress making any effort in that direction. That's consent of the governed.
- antishatter 9y ago
  Strong ownership laws are a fundamental requirement of a State that is deemed worthy of investment. Why would anyone bother if the government could just take all your shit without compensation.
  - beat 9y ago
    Eminent domain doesn't happen without compensation. It's done at fair market value, almost always settled by the courts, that don't have a political interest in the outcome. It doesn't mean take your land without compensation. It means take your land whether you like it or not, for fair market compensation.
- Helmet 9y ago
  I don't understand how an American can manage this thought. It runs in the face of every stated ideal and philosophical underpinning of this dear republic. I'll refer you to the concept of natural rights, Locke, Paine, the Deceleration of the Independence, the Bill of Rights and the rest of the Constitution, and the entirety of classical liberal philosophy.
  - beat 9y ago
    I don't buy the idea of "natural rights" in general. That doesn't mean I think constitutional democracy is a bad idea. It's just a good idea for different reasons. Believing that the concept of owning property is inseparable from a government that defines property and resolves property disputes doesn't make me un-American. Sheesh.
    - taurath 9y ago
      The argument is absurd, because anyone more powerful than you can and will take your property by force unless you have the backing of a society.
  - yongjik 9y ago
    The Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights were written when land was one virtually unlimited resource in the US. Because it was sparsely populated (even more sparsely than a few centuries before that), and most of its inhabitants simply didn't matter. Let's stop pretending that the 18th century understanding of society transcends time just because this nation happened to be founded at that particular era.
  - phil248 9y ago
    So does the lack of universal voting rights for a couple hundred years. Sometimes old ideas are wrong and should be mocked an then ignored.
    - Helmet 9y ago
      The lack of universal voting rights, as well as slavery, existed despite what I mentioned, not because of it. The Declaration of Independence is quite unequivocal: ...all men are created equal...endowed..with certain unalienable rights... All you have shown is that we as people are flawed, even when the truth is right there in front of us.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago
  Actually it kind of does. Even in the animal world, an animal will mark its territory and defend that territory against encroachment. Humans would do the same thing, except now we have outsourced the violence to the state. Instead of peeing on trees to mark our property, the state keeps a registry of property owners. Instead of physically fighting with intruders, we call the law enforcement arm of the state. The concept of property or territory you control exists apart from the state.
  - beat 9y ago
    But now you're not talking about a "right", but merely a biological imperative. Nothing that separates humans from, say, spiders. And then your "natural right" to property extends no farther than your ability to defend it from someone bigger and meaner than you. I can shoot you, and then your land becomes mine, by "natural right". Is this really the hill you want to die on?
    - RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago
      I was not addressing "rights", but that the concept of "property" exists independently of the state.
      - jbooth 9y ago
        It really doesn't in regards to land in modern society, though. Ownership of land is quite literally a deed on file with the government. Feudal society, maybe.
        azernik 9y ago
        Not even in feudal society. That "deed on file" was originally a relationship with the sovereign lord (usually the king) who actually "owned" the land. In fact, ownership in Anglophone countries is still referred to as "fee simple", derived from "fief"; you hold the land from your Lord the state, under a form of tenure that happens not to include any feudal obligations ("simple").
      - 9y ago
dasil003 9y ago
This attitude is why public transportation in this country is third-world level, and why all our projects cost an order of magnitude than they do in the rest of the developed world.
- workthrowaway27 9y ago
  Is eminent domain used widely in other countries infrastructure projects? I think part of the issue might be that the US is very large, esp. compared to European countries with better transportation systems.
conanbatt 9y ago
The mere concept of enforcible private ownership of land is invented by the State. To be honest, this would be easier to do if we had Land Value tax, making all california land be worth a fraction of what it is today.
- sounds 9y ago
  I claim that once I have completed whatever processes are required to claim the land as mine, it remains mine until I consent otherwise. If I have to put up fences, pay down a mortgage, file a deed at a title company, etc. then those requirements are disclosed beforehand. After that the land is mine, I will defend it as mine. Various states have discovered how difficult eminent domain is to fully enforce. The "little old lady" is often tougher than anybody. (I will ignore any arguments that start with "property taxes," because it distracts from the point.)
  - conanbatt 9y ago
    > I claim that once I have completed whatever processes are required to claim the land as mine, it remains mine until I consent otherwise. I reject that claim altogether because any land that the State gave you, the State took from someone else, or from nature. And who gave the State the authority to own nature? > After that the land is mine, I will defend it as mine. Various states have discovered how difficult eminent domain is to fully enforce. The "little old lady" is often tougher than anybody. Its hard to politically enforce domestically, but bear in mind that if it were a serious risk to the state, it would take very little effort to kill everyone and take the land. The capacity of the state to do that is beyond any doubt.
taurath 9y ago
Property hoarding/rent-seeking is screwing over the collective in favor of the individual. They are at least paid at or above market rate. Private ownership only exists in the framework of a society, and sometimes the needs of the society as a whole are more important than that of the individual. Otherwise we wouldn’t need a military or borders.

dmitrygr 9y ago

I did not realize that lack of desire for playing along with suddenly relocating from my land cheaply makes me corrupt. Learn something new every day.

dominotw 9y ago
yea what does "corrupt landowner" even mean?

TallGuyShort 9y ago

Yes, when I look at a government project being massively over budget, it's the people who are legally compelled to give up their land for the project to be successful that I look at and ask myself, "how can we be more forceful with these corrupt people?"

aaron_m04 9y ago
Sarcasm?

moduspol 9y ago

> From the article, it sounds like the biggest obstacles are "land buys" and "delays relating to land buys". So far, right? If you're having trouble acquiring the land, you've still got plenty of hurdles before you've got something built. If the actual problem is incompetence or inefficiency, this is just the first sign of more to come.

ovao 9y ago

It's not clear to me how you arrived so quickly to the conclusion that these obstacles are a consequence of "money-appeasing corrupt landowners trying to hit the jackpot". While it's possible that's the case, it's also entirely possible that the initial estimates for the cost of land purchases were simply inaccurate.

conanbatt 9y ago
Its a self full-filling prophecy. Now that you know the budget will expand 50%, your leverage only increases, meaning you can ask for more before eminent domain is used and thus increases budget costs, etc.

Cyberdog 9y ago

Okay. Let's start this new strengthened eminent domain policy with your land.

antishatter 9y ago

"appeasing corrupt landowners trying to hit the jackpot" is a strong claim considering the government is stepping in and forcing people to sell land that has been in families for generations. For you to so brazenly say it's the right of the state to take it and not adequately compensate people who use land as a source of income (via agriculture) and that we should strengthen the governments ability to do so has virtually no place in this discussion and it is a disgusting and ignorant stance on the matter. The state already does it's best to go after the central valley folks with high taxes and regulations paid for by coastal elites who are too wealthy to be negatively affected, do we really need to now steal their land?

megaman22 9y ago

It's always easier to steal other people's property, especially if you have them by the short-hairs. In other contexts, this would be called extortion. There's something I profoundly don't understand about someone who would seriously advocate for things like eminent domain or estate taxes.

BRAlNlAC 9y ago
I profoundly don't understand how someone can seriously advocate against estate tax. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

wahern 9y ago

The cost is unlikely a legal issue. In California eminent domain powers are strong and the adjudication process usually swift. The cost is likely part of evolving political calculus--project developers paying out more than the courts would require as a strategy to relieve political pressure. The political backlash against HSR is greater than expected and growing. HSR is likely paying out more money to fragment and quiet opposition in the Central Valley.