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I don't understand all the hate on this site for Bitcoin. Yes it is speculation, but I rather have people speculate on something like a digital currency than on

I don't understand all the hate on this site for Bitcoin. Yes it is speculation, but I rather have people speculate on something like a digital currency than on things like food prices or real estate. In my building 40% of all apartments are vacant because they where bought to store money, on the other hand there are 50 people showing up for every rental with a decent price. So, even if Bitcoin goes up to $250,000 it will not have the negative side effects of other forms of speculation.

Nursie 9y ago
It's true that it doesn't affect housing. However the price does affect energy use, which for BTC is more than many (most?) countries now.
ckastner 9y ago
How would you characterize the side effects if Bitcoin went down to $1,000. Or even lower?
- MulliMulli 9y ago
  Some people will loose, some will gain, but both parties are actively involved in the speculation.
aviv 9y ago
Your example proved why those vacant apartments are a great place to park your money.
JTon 9y ago
I agree with you. Just chiming in to say BTC speculation isn't a free lunch. The global energy consumed due to mining operations is staggering. Not linking any numbers because we've seen articles hit the front page of HN in the the recently past. So I assume this is common knowledge.
- yAnonymous 9y ago
  +++ Bitcoin technology pushes alternative energy +++ BUY NOW +++
jondubois 9y ago
Agreed but I hope it keeps dropping then I'll be able to buy more.
maxerickson 9y ago
It does have the potential for negative effects; people will lose money that it was not sensible for them to risk. In that situation, it's worth trying to get people to clearly see the risk they are taking on. I think there isn't really hate for it anyway, it's just that there is obviously a large amount of downside risk, so it is frustrating to people that see the risk to also see people talking about how Bitcoin is a great and safe investment (and there's nothing unique to Bitcoin about that frustration).
the_gastropod 9y ago
Bitcoin uses tons of electricity (mostly from the cheapest sources: coal) to guess random numbers. And as the price of Bitcoin increases, there's more incentive to mine. Bitcoin speculation is absolutely detrimental to the planet.
rhino369 9y ago
You are using a false choice fallacy. Sure, arguably better to speculate on bitcoin than food and real estate. But it would be even better if they didn't speculate on bitcoin too. I think you are discounting how fucked some people will be when bitcoin inevitably drops to zero. A lot of people are putting their nestegg into it. Also, food futures are almost certainly a good thing. It lets farmers hedge risk, which leads to more farming and overall lower prices.
deepakkarki 9y ago
Perhaps because anything that is hyped up gets its due flak. This is not hate for Bitcoin per se but also the bunch of scam ICOs going around and "influencers" popping up every nook and corner. Over that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, and mining bitcoin is a huge energy drain! To a lot of people this is reminiscent of the gold rush and dotcom bubble of the yesteryears.
- sharemywin 9y ago
  any currency has minimal intrinsic value. That's what makes it a good currency.
econner 9y ago
The sad thing about this Bitcoin bubble is that it amounts to taking money from everyone who got in after you. That's the only thing that is giving it value right now: new people willing to pay higher prices for BTC. People have mortgaged their houses to get into this bubble, and many of them are going to be left holding the bag. It's not like people are buying BTC because it gives them a place to live or because it allows them to transact in a way they couldn't before.
- sharemywin 9y ago
  The same thing can be said about the internet bubble.
  - dragontamer 9y ago
    The internet bubble created companies like Google or Amazon. When you bought into Google's IPO, Google received money which then purchased servers. At the end of the day, that's what stocks are all about. A mechanism to give your money to a public company. A better example of recent history is how TSLA raised a bunch of money through stocks to build the Gigafactory. $5 Billion USD was raised through a combination of debt (aka: old-school banks) + Stock offerings, and now there's a working factory in Nevada churning out batteries and cars. What does buying BTC do aside from increase the price? When you give USD to a BTC holder, all you did was reward that person for mining. I think we can confidently say that all of the servers that were given to Google ended up creating something more than a a simple data-center. Google, as an entity, has more value than the sum of all of the servers that it runs. Can the same be said about BTC mining equipment and BTC? No. Because at the end of the day, the value of BTC doesn't "grow" if you pump it full of USD. We already know the secret of blockchain. Google's value grew in the 90s because buying more servers in the 90s allowed it to search more web-sites and build a better search algorithm. Putting $1000 into Google Servers made MORE than $1000 of gains later (as services like Google, GMail, Youtube, etc. etc. were all made on top of those servers). In contrast, investing money into BTC doesn't actually do anything. There's no company that actually benefits, aside from bigger-and-bigger mining centers. The innovation is dead: the BTC community has become too bulky and politicized to accept even minor changes (like Segwitx2). Besides, Segwitx2 doesn't need us to pump money into BTC miners for it to work or innovate. If BTC crashes tomorrow, the lightning network will STILL be developed and no harm will come to the innovators in the community.
tabeth 9y ago
Even real estate speculators are paying tax which goes to things such as roads and schools. In addition they're incentivized to keep their property at some minimally viable state.
- MulliMulli 9y ago
  You also have to pay taxes on crypto gains.
  - tabeth 9y ago
    Indeed, but with real estate you have to pay taxes every year (on both improvements and the land itself), in addition to taxes on the gains (unless you do a like-kind exchange) and anything you buy for your property (though much of that can be deducted). Not to mention holding real estate indirectly employees people to maintain said property. In short, real estate speculation benefits the greater economy far more than coin speculation. That being said there are definitely downsides, such as vacancy, but that's more of a symptom of capitalism in general than real estate speculation in particular. TLDR: Real estate speculation helps the surrounding local economy more than bitcoin, however both are unideal.
root_axis 9y ago
It's a reaction to the insane levels of hype and proselytizing that the enthusiasts constantly post on this site.
- sharemywin 9y ago
  kind of like AI, VR, Saas etc.
  - root_axis 9y ago
    Saas is a business model and it has largely proven to be a successful one. There is certainly some VR hype, but its relatively tame compared to anything blockchain related and there are also multiple companies (Samsung, FB, Valve, Sony) that have produced successful (though, not blockbuster level) VR products. AI is certainly considerably hype-driven and there are definitely some far-fetched prognosticators in the AI camp (e.g. AI singularity evangelists), however, the technology that is commonly referred to as "AI" has been integrated into and greatly enhanced the function of many software products with crosscutting effects on multiple industries. We also don't see AI enthusiasts trying to drive hype among the masses and encouraging them to get in early and put money into AI. Blockchain tokens have demonstrated unique and interesting properties and have been an ideal tool for facilitating darknet commerce, but that is where the usefulness has ended. On the other hand, the blockchain proselytizers spread all sorts of nonsense about blockchains completely reshaping the entire political landscape, liberating the people from the tyranny of government, ending all wars blah blah blah. This is a stark contrast to what blockchains have actually been shown to be good at doing, which is pretty much just being a bitcoin. With most technologies, development continues over time and people get excited about the technology as it becomes more and more capable over the years, with blockchains the opposite is true where the enthusiasts are constantly trying to exclaim why everyone should BUY BUY BUY, come on, don't get left behind, are you some kind of luddite? If you don't love blockchain tokens its likely that you're just feeling threatened by the blockchain revolution and how it is disrupting existing power structures, sorry you're bitter that you didn't get in on the ground floor, these negative reactions to the blockchain are clearly the results of jealousy surrounding the 3000% ROI that crypto-investors were smart enough to take advantage of.. blah blah blah
donkeyd 9y ago
It's a lot easier for people to invest in Crypto that it is to invest in pretty much anything else. This causes a lot more people without any knowledge of markets to get in. Also, the markets are not regulated and many cryptos already have proven to be shady at best. I recently opened a stock trading account. Before being allowed to make a single trade, I had to complete a survey about my knowledge of the markets I'd be trading in. To start trading Crypto, you just need an account (often in shady markets, because it's easier to create an account) and money. And you only need like $100 in stead of 200k to speculate on the price of an apartment.
- sharemywin 9y ago
  Any idiot with a $1 can buy a lotto ticket. The only difference the government gets a cut.
  - donkeyd 9y ago
    Exactly, 'investing' in crypto is best compared with gambling. But the internet keeps calling it investing.
Waterluvian 9y ago
I hear you. I hate house speculation because my family needs a house and I can't afford one where I grew up. But I want as few broke people as possible in the society I'm part of. Each one adds a bit of stress to every social system.
olalonde 9y ago
> I don't understand all the hate on this site for Bitcoin. Envy and regret probably explains a lot of it. I wish Bitcoin would join politics in HN's off-topic list... the threads are generally crap and emotionally charged.
daxorid 9y ago
> I don't understand all the hate on this site for Bitcoin This one is easy. Patio11's opinion + HN hivemind. If a top ten karma poster proclaims an opinion, it is gospel.

Nursie 9y ago

It's true that it doesn't affect housing. However the price does affect energy use, which for BTC is more than many (most?) countries now.

ckastner 9y ago

How would you characterize the side effects if Bitcoin went down to $1,000. Or even lower?

MulliMulli 9y ago
Some people will loose, some will gain, but both parties are actively involved in the speculation.

aviv 9y ago

Your example proved why those vacant apartments are a great place to park your money.

JTon 9y ago

I agree with you. Just chiming in to say BTC speculation isn't a free lunch. The global energy consumed due to mining operations is staggering. Not linking any numbers because we've seen articles hit the front page of HN in the the recently past. So I assume this is common knowledge.

yAnonymous 9y ago
+++ Bitcoin technology pushes alternative energy +++ BUY NOW +++

jondubois 9y ago

Agreed but I hope it keeps dropping then I'll be able to buy more.

maxerickson 9y ago

It does have the potential for negative effects; people will lose money that it was not sensible for them to risk. In that situation, it's worth trying to get people to clearly see the risk they are taking on. I think there isn't really hate for it anyway, it's just that there is obviously a large amount of downside risk, so it is frustrating to people that see the risk to also see people talking about how Bitcoin is a great and safe investment (and there's nothing unique to Bitcoin about that frustration).

the_gastropod 9y ago

Bitcoin uses tons of electricity (mostly from the cheapest sources: coal) to guess random numbers. And as the price of Bitcoin increases, there's more incentive to mine. Bitcoin speculation is absolutely detrimental to the planet.

rhino369 9y ago

You are using a false choice fallacy. Sure, arguably better to speculate on bitcoin than food and real estate. But it would be even better if they didn't speculate on bitcoin too. I think you are discounting how fucked some people will be when bitcoin inevitably drops to zero. A lot of people are putting their nestegg into it. Also, food futures are almost certainly a good thing. It lets farmers hedge risk, which leads to more farming and overall lower prices.

deepakkarki 9y ago

Perhaps because anything that is hyped up gets its due flak. This is not hate for Bitcoin per se but also the bunch of scam ICOs going around and "influencers" popping up every nook and corner. Over that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, and mining bitcoin is a huge energy drain! To a lot of people this is reminiscent of the gold rush and dotcom bubble of the yesteryears.

sharemywin 9y ago
any currency has minimal intrinsic value. That's what makes it a good currency.

econner 9y ago

The sad thing about this Bitcoin bubble is that it amounts to taking money from everyone who got in after you. That's the only thing that is giving it value right now: new people willing to pay higher prices for BTC. People have mortgaged their houses to get into this bubble, and many of them are going to be left holding the bag. It's not like people are buying BTC because it gives them a place to live or because it allows them to transact in a way they couldn't before.

sharemywin 9y ago
The same thing can be said about the internet bubble.
- dragontamer 9y ago
  The internet bubble created companies like Google or Amazon. When you bought into Google's IPO, Google received money which then purchased servers. At the end of the day, that's what stocks are all about. A mechanism to give your money to a public company. A better example of recent history is how TSLA raised a bunch of money through stocks to build the Gigafactory. $5 Billion USD was raised through a combination of debt (aka: old-school banks) + Stock offerings, and now there's a working factory in Nevada churning out batteries and cars. What does buying BTC do aside from increase the price? When you give USD to a BTC holder, all you did was reward that person for mining. I think we can confidently say that all of the servers that were given to Google ended up creating something more than a a simple data-center. Google, as an entity, has more value than the sum of all of the servers that it runs. Can the same be said about BTC mining equipment and BTC? No. Because at the end of the day, the value of BTC doesn't "grow" if you pump it full of USD. We already know the secret of blockchain. Google's value grew in the 90s because buying more servers in the 90s allowed it to search more web-sites and build a better search algorithm. Putting $1000 into Google Servers made MORE than $1000 of gains later (as services like Google, GMail, Youtube, etc. etc. were all made on top of those servers). In contrast, investing money into BTC doesn't actually do anything. There's no company that actually benefits, aside from bigger-and-bigger mining centers. The innovation is dead: the BTC community has become too bulky and politicized to accept even minor changes (like Segwitx2). Besides, Segwitx2 doesn't need us to pump money into BTC miners for it to work or innovate. If BTC crashes tomorrow, the lightning network will STILL be developed and no harm will come to the innovators in the community.

tabeth 9y ago

Even real estate speculators are paying tax which goes to things such as roads and schools. In addition they're incentivized to keep their property at some minimally viable state.

MulliMulli 9y ago
You also have to pay taxes on crypto gains.
- tabeth 9y ago
  Indeed, but with real estate you have to pay taxes every year (on both improvements and the land itself), in addition to taxes on the gains (unless you do a like-kind exchange) and anything you buy for your property (though much of that can be deducted). Not to mention holding real estate indirectly employees people to maintain said property. In short, real estate speculation benefits the greater economy far more than coin speculation. That being said there are definitely downsides, such as vacancy, but that's more of a symptom of capitalism in general than real estate speculation in particular. TLDR: Real estate speculation helps the surrounding local economy more than bitcoin, however both are unideal.

root_axis 9y ago

It's a reaction to the insane levels of hype and proselytizing that the enthusiasts constantly post on this site.

sharemywin 9y ago
kind of like AI, VR, Saas etc.
- root_axis 9y ago
  Saas is a business model and it has largely proven to be a successful one. There is certainly some VR hype, but its relatively tame compared to anything blockchain related and there are also multiple companies (Samsung, FB, Valve, Sony) that have produced successful (though, not blockbuster level) VR products. AI is certainly considerably hype-driven and there are definitely some far-fetched prognosticators in the AI camp (e.g. AI singularity evangelists), however, the technology that is commonly referred to as "AI" has been integrated into and greatly enhanced the function of many software products with crosscutting effects on multiple industries. We also don't see AI enthusiasts trying to drive hype among the masses and encouraging them to get in early and put money into AI. Blockchain tokens have demonstrated unique and interesting properties and have been an ideal tool for facilitating darknet commerce, but that is where the usefulness has ended. On the other hand, the blockchain proselytizers spread all sorts of nonsense about blockchains completely reshaping the entire political landscape, liberating the people from the tyranny of government, ending all wars blah blah blah. This is a stark contrast to what blockchains have actually been shown to be good at doing, which is pretty much just being a bitcoin. With most technologies, development continues over time and people get excited about the technology as it becomes more and more capable over the years, with blockchains the opposite is true where the enthusiasts are constantly trying to exclaim why everyone should BUY BUY BUY, come on, don't get left behind, are you some kind of luddite? If you don't love blockchain tokens its likely that you're just feeling threatened by the blockchain revolution and how it is disrupting existing power structures, sorry you're bitter that you didn't get in on the ground floor, these negative reactions to the blockchain are clearly the results of jealousy surrounding the 3000% ROI that crypto-investors were smart enough to take advantage of.. blah blah blah

donkeyd 9y ago

It's a lot easier for people to invest in Crypto that it is to invest in pretty much anything else. This causes a lot more people without any knowledge of markets to get in. Also, the markets are not regulated and many cryptos already have proven to be shady at best. I recently opened a stock trading account. Before being allowed to make a single trade, I had to complete a survey about my knowledge of the markets I'd be trading in. To start trading Crypto, you just need an account (often in shady markets, because it's easier to create an account) and money. And you only need like $100 in stead of 200k to speculate on the price of an apartment.

sharemywin 9y ago
Any idiot with a $1 can buy a lotto ticket. The only difference the government gets a cut.
- donkeyd 9y ago
  Exactly, 'investing' in crypto is best compared with gambling. But the internet keeps calling it investing.

Waterluvian 9y ago

I hear you. I hate house speculation because my family needs a house and I can't afford one where I grew up. But I want as few broke people as possible in the society I'm part of. Each one adds a bit of stress to every social system.

olalonde 9y ago

> I don't understand all the hate on this site for Bitcoin. Envy and regret probably explains a lot of it. I wish Bitcoin would join politics in HN's off-topic list... the threads are generally crap and emotionally charged.

daxorid 9y ago

> I don't understand all the hate on this site for Bitcoin This one is easy. Patio11's opinion + HN hivemind. If a top ten karma poster proclaims an opinion, it is gospel.