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I like Kotlin but I really wish they would draw a clearer line between kotlin the language (incl. compilers + generic tools) and the kotlin-plugin for IntelliJ

I like Kotlin but I really wish they would draw a clearer line between kotlin the language (incl. compilers + generic tools) and the kotlin-plugin for IntelliJ IDEA. It seems they see the work on IDEA support for kotlin as an essential quality of new kotlin features. But guess what, there are people out there who don't want to use JetBrains' IDE, who prefer eclipse (for whatever reason) or who would be much happier to use an editor with LSP support. If JetBrains didn't make most of their money with their IDE, they would probably put more effort in providing general tools that can be used with any IDE/editor. In this sense, I think JetBrains is hampering the success of kotlin. They should try to give kotlin a better organisational foundation.

V-2 9y ago
That's sort of the point though, no? What's in it for them if they were to take care of Kotlin support on Eclipse - their competitor. They don't make their living off Kotlin
- stewbrew 9y ago
  Yes, but I personally think this will be a problem for the long-term success of kotlin.
  - true_religion 9y ago
    Sure, but it's like windows and .net, even if they invest in usage outside their own native ecosystem it's going to be lackluster.
  - _sdegutis 9y ago
    Meh, I think IDE integration is an essential feature of a language. That’s why I use VS Code any time I write JS and only then.
    - stewbrew 9y ago
      Now imagine the only option to write JavaScript in a sensible way (however this should be possible :-) would be VSC. Do you really think JS would have had any success? I think it would have been another Visual Basic. Even typescript (a MS product) can be written with all sorts of IDEs/editors.
      - smt88 9y ago
        If we could only use VSC, that would be fine because VSC is fantastic. I've found the same of IntelliJ products. They're so good that I don't mind being forced to use them.
      - riku_iki 9y ago
        If VSC + JS would be free, open source and running on all platforms, why not?
      - _sdegutis 9y ago
        C# and Swift are in that boat (VS and Xcode) but they’re doing alright, because they’re the main blessed languages for their platforms. JS is the only blessed language of web front ends. So yeah I don’t think IDE lock-in is a concern for JS but it definitely makes me happier as a developer to have deep integration that makes my job easier.
nobleach 9y ago
This is my exact gripe. I appreciate that they've invested a serious amount of time and effort into creating an entire language for the JVM. But I am bummed about how tied it is to the IDE experience. Writing Go or Rust in Vim is relatively painless. I've written a few minor things in Kotlin and Kotlin/Vert.x and the non-IDE experience is pretty craptastic. Almost all docs assume you'll write some code, and some IDE will automatically add imports for you. I left the Java world because I couldn't stand having to have all of the hand holding just to achieve simple goals. I'm not saying Java or Kotlin are _bad_ languages at all. Perhaps I'm just bugged by the general attitude that "everyone will have IntelliJ".

V-2 9y ago

That's sort of the point though, no? What's in it for them if they were to take care of Kotlin support on Eclipse - their competitor. They don't make their living off Kotlin

stewbrew 9y ago
Yes, but I personally think this will be a problem for the long-term success of kotlin.
- true_religion 9y ago
  Sure, but it's like windows and .net, even if they invest in usage outside their own native ecosystem it's going to be lackluster.
- _sdegutis 9y ago
  Meh, I think IDE integration is an essential feature of a language. That’s why I use VS Code any time I write JS and only then.
  - stewbrew 9y ago
    Now imagine the only option to write JavaScript in a sensible way (however this should be possible :-) would be VSC. Do you really think JS would have had any success? I think it would have been another Visual Basic. Even typescript (a MS product) can be written with all sorts of IDEs/editors.
    - smt88 9y ago
      If we could only use VSC, that would be fine because VSC is fantastic. I've found the same of IntelliJ products. They're so good that I don't mind being forced to use them.
    - riku_iki 9y ago
      If VSC + JS would be free, open source and running on all platforms, why not?
    - _sdegutis 9y ago
      C# and Swift are in that boat (VS and Xcode) but they’re doing alright, because they’re the main blessed languages for their platforms. JS is the only blessed language of web front ends. So yeah I don’t think IDE lock-in is a concern for JS but it definitely makes me happier as a developer to have deep integration that makes my job easier.

nobleach 9y ago

This is my exact gripe. I appreciate that they've invested a serious amount of time and effort into creating an entire language for the JVM. But I am bummed about how tied it is to the IDE experience. Writing Go or Rust in Vim is relatively painless. I've written a few minor things in Kotlin and Kotlin/Vert.x and the non-IDE experience is pretty craptastic. Almost all docs assume you'll write some code, and some IDE will automatically add imports for you. I left the Java world because I couldn't stand having to have all of the hand holding just to achieve simple goals. I'm not saying Java or Kotlin are _bad_ languages at all. Perhaps I'm just bugged by the general attitude that "everyone will have IntelliJ".