6 ms·

What I am amazed at is that a naturalized citizen would run the citizenship gauntlet, actually become a citizen, and then go and betray the country they presuma

What I am amazed at is that a naturalized citizen would run the citizenship gauntlet, actually become a citizen, and then go and betray the country they presumably worked for. On the other hand, there's no effort or merit in being born at a particular geographical location.

taneq 9y ago
So if you were a foreign government and you wanted to place a loyal agent into a privileged position inside the CIA, how would you do it? Just have them enter the country on a tourist visa, walk up to the front door and ask for launch codes?
- EthanHeilman 9y ago
  >So if you were a foreign government and you wanted to place a loyal agent into a privileged position inside the CIA, how would you do it? A better strategy would be to recruit someone who already has access to the information you want. Consider the difficulty in "placing a loyal agent": 1. Getting them into the country setting up a life for them, 2. Getting them through citizenship (might take five-twenty years, might never happen), 3. Getting them hired at the CIA and hoping they get sufficient clearance, 4. Getting them moved in to a role with access to the information you want. 2,3,4 all require a number of things going right, nothing going wrong and each would take many years. Success would require a large number of attempts and the successful attempts might take over a decade before you get useful intelligence. I'm not sure anything like what you suggest has ever happened, the closest I can think of is the technique of placing agents in a foreign country and having them associate with targets of interest or report back intelligence[0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegals_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegals_Program
  - taneq 9y ago
    Let's say we take your alternate approach and try to find someone already in the position we want, and turn them. Who are you most likely to have leverage over: An ex-national with family still living within your reach, that you can use as leverage? Or some anonymous U.S. citizen who's been pre-selected for their loyalty by the CIA, who you'd have to first identify, then track down their family or other leverage, then coordinate a hostage situation in such a way that they wouldn't just immediately blow the whistle? I don't think either option is easy. The spy game isn't meant to be easy.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - indubitable 9y ago
    I think you're substantially understating the difficult in recruiting spies. Any mistakes there and the recruiting nation would not only end up with double agents but also expose their handles, methods of contact, etc. Perhaps the biggest issue is that you'd need, as a foreign nation, to know more about the loyalties of intelligence agents than the country they're working for. And similarly, I think you're greatly exaggerating the difficulties in obtaining US citizenship. It's a process that can take as few as 4 years. And thanks to our laws, people can simply have children in the US and they are automatic citizens. And there's the third option that sort of meets both these opposite extremes in the middle and that's simply recruiting people already within the nation. Given the reported brain drain of the US intelligence forces, getting a substantial fraction of valuable targets (computer scientists, mathematicians, engineers, etc) into positions of intelligence does not seem like it would be all that improbable. Countries like China are already at a major advantage here given the huge numbers of Chinese involved in STEM.
    - mbroncano 9y ago
      > And thanks to our laws, people can simply have children in the US and they are automatic citizens. Under which law? I thought this was debunked time and time again as an urban legend.
      - amdavidson 9y ago
        The fourteenth amendment[0]. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Children_born_to_citizens_of_other_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_Un...
      - 5555624 9y ago
        I think the poster is saying the children are automatically citizens. The parents would not be citizens; but, anyone born in the United States is a citizen.
      - whatyoucantsay 9y ago
  - toyg 9y ago
    China has plenty of manpower and a traditional outlook spanning millennia - they can play the long game. Besides, you don’t need laser focus - throw tons of kids to all your targets (cia, fbi, general government) and some are bound to reach a sensitive position that can produce good intel.
indubitable 9y ago
The funny thing is I would have agreed with you before I ended up in a position where such choices have meaning. I, and I suspect yourself, have never been in the least patriotic or nationalistic and always held things like 'support the home team' with disdain since, as you said, why should I particularly care if something happens to occur in the same general geographic location where I happened to be? I've spent a good deal of my life traveling away from US borders, and I'm far from pleased about the current direction of the US - and I've never been what you'd consider patriotic or nationalistic. Nonetheless, I somehow have a very different feeling towards the US than I do to any of the countries I've visited - even ones where I could now obtain citizenship if I so desired. I think country forms a bond much like family. And much like with family, many of us never even recognize that bond until you're far removed from it. By contrast, I've very much enjoyed my travels but I hold no allegiance to any of these countries - even ones I've resided in for years. I can't really explain it, since I never thought I'd feel this way. I suppose what I'm getting at is that you can't really judge, or predict, people until you've walked a decade in their shoes.
- UnhelpfulYoda 9y ago
  Reminds me of the contrast between SF and LA. After living in SF for a year, all of a sudden, driving down Market Street, I had this overwhelming sense that I was home now. Lived in LA for a lot longer, loved the weather, but never got that feeling that I was home. My thoughts were that this is temporary, and I'm just here to make make money and leave.
chrischen 9y ago
I don't think the guy went into the CIA from the start with the goal of betraying. As it says in the article, he left the CIA disgruntled since his career plateaued, and most likely was offered compensation for the information he had.

taneq 9y ago

So if you were a foreign government and you wanted to place a loyal agent into a privileged position inside the CIA, how would you do it? Just have them enter the country on a tourist visa, walk up to the front door and ask for launch codes?

EthanHeilman 9y ago
>So if you were a foreign government and you wanted to place a loyal agent into a privileged position inside the CIA, how would you do it? A better strategy would be to recruit someone who already has access to the information you want. Consider the difficulty in "placing a loyal agent": 1. Getting them into the country setting up a life for them, 2. Getting them through citizenship (might take five-twenty years, might never happen), 3. Getting them hired at the CIA and hoping they get sufficient clearance, 4. Getting them moved in to a role with access to the information you want. 2,3,4 all require a number of things going right, nothing going wrong and each would take many years. Success would require a large number of attempts and the successful attempts might take over a decade before you get useful intelligence. I'm not sure anything like what you suggest has ever happened, the closest I can think of is the technique of placing agents in a foreign country and having them associate with targets of interest or report back intelligence[0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegals_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegals_Program
- taneq 9y ago
  Let's say we take your alternate approach and try to find someone already in the position we want, and turn them. Who are you most likely to have leverage over: An ex-national with family still living within your reach, that you can use as leverage? Or some anonymous U.S. citizen who's been pre-selected for their loyalty by the CIA, who you'd have to first identify, then track down their family or other leverage, then coordinate a hostage situation in such a way that they wouldn't just immediately blow the whistle? I don't think either option is easy. The spy game isn't meant to be easy.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- indubitable 9y ago
  I think you're substantially understating the difficult in recruiting spies. Any mistakes there and the recruiting nation would not only end up with double agents but also expose their handles, methods of contact, etc. Perhaps the biggest issue is that you'd need, as a foreign nation, to know more about the loyalties of intelligence agents than the country they're working for. And similarly, I think you're greatly exaggerating the difficulties in obtaining US citizenship. It's a process that can take as few as 4 years. And thanks to our laws, people can simply have children in the US and they are automatic citizens. And there's the third option that sort of meets both these opposite extremes in the middle and that's simply recruiting people already within the nation. Given the reported brain drain of the US intelligence forces, getting a substantial fraction of valuable targets (computer scientists, mathematicians, engineers, etc) into positions of intelligence does not seem like it would be all that improbable. Countries like China are already at a major advantage here given the huge numbers of Chinese involved in STEM.
  - mbroncano 9y ago
    > And thanks to our laws, people can simply have children in the US and they are automatic citizens. Under which law? I thought this was debunked time and time again as an urban legend.
    - amdavidson 9y ago
      The fourteenth amendment[0]. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Children_born_to_citizens_of_other_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_Un...
    - 5555624 9y ago
      I think the poster is saying the children are automatically citizens. The parents would not be citizens; but, anyone born in the United States is a citizen.
    - whatyoucantsay 9y ago
- toyg 9y ago
  China has plenty of manpower and a traditional outlook spanning millennia - they can play the long game. Besides, you don’t need laser focus - throw tons of kids to all your targets (cia, fbi, general government) and some are bound to reach a sensitive position that can produce good intel.

indubitable 9y ago

The funny thing is I would have agreed with you before I ended up in a position where such choices have meaning. I, and I suspect yourself, have never been in the least patriotic or nationalistic and always held things like 'support the home team' with disdain since, as you said, why should I particularly care if something happens to occur in the same general geographic location where I happened to be? I've spent a good deal of my life traveling away from US borders, and I'm far from pleased about the current direction of the US - and I've never been what you'd consider patriotic or nationalistic. Nonetheless, I somehow have a very different feeling towards the US than I do to any of the countries I've visited - even ones where I could now obtain citizenship if I so desired. I think country forms a bond much like family. And much like with family, many of us never even recognize that bond until you're far removed from it. By contrast, I've very much enjoyed my travels but I hold no allegiance to any of these countries - even ones I've resided in for years. I can't really explain it, since I never thought I'd feel this way. I suppose what I'm getting at is that you can't really judge, or predict, people until you've walked a decade in their shoes.

UnhelpfulYoda 9y ago
Reminds me of the contrast between SF and LA. After living in SF for a year, all of a sudden, driving down Market Street, I had this overwhelming sense that I was home now. Lived in LA for a lot longer, loved the weather, but never got that feeling that I was home. My thoughts were that this is temporary, and I'm just here to make make money and leave.

chrischen 9y ago

I don't think the guy went into the CIA from the start with the goal of betraying. As it says in the article, he left the CIA disgruntled since his career plateaued, and most likely was offered compensation for the information he had.