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That's just not helpful. Money circulates around the economy. If I buy a $10k car I don't say the car cost my employer $10k.

by guelo 9y ago

chiefalchemist 9y ago
And the abstraction of the state having money is helpful? How so? It's fake. Words matter. Language matters. Ask Orwell. The point being when the abstraction is removed and the truth repeated, perceptions, opinions, and eventually the decisions and actions of citizens will change. As it is, the abstraction enables complacency. The government is not your employer. YOU are the government's employer. See? The conventional lexicon has confused you. Which, thank you, supports my original statement.
- jcranmer 9y ago
  > And the abstraction of the state having money is helpful? How so? It's fake. Words matter. Language matters. Ask Orwell. The state is a real, tangible entity that has a separate coexistence from the collective of individuals under its jurisdiction. The US is not a democracy--it is very intentionally not a democracy--it is a republic. What you are arguing, although you are using language to obfuscate the meaning, is that you personally own anything the state owns. But even if you take the mistaken view that the government is nothing more than the people it governs, that ownership is not personal, but collective.
gnode 9y ago
If I buy a $10k car, and expense it to my employer I would say the car cost my employer $10k. I may have been the one with agency, but the cost is not mine to bear. The idea of representative government, is that we're employing the government to decide how our money is spent.
- chiefalchemist 9y ago
  You hand your employee a credit card. They buy a car with it. They drive the car back to the office, hand you the keys and proclaim, "Look what I bought you." In your world the reply is, "Golly gee. Thanks. You're so good to me." In my world the obvious reply is, "Huh? What? Do you think I'm stupid?" Language is a tool, and it can also be a weapon. Orwell would disagree with one of us. I'm fairly confident it would not be me.
  - gnode 9y ago
    I wasn't implying it was some outlandish misbehaviour. Company cars are a real and common occurance, as are other large business expenses, like plane tickets.

That's just not helpful. Money circulates around the economy. If I buy a $10k car I don't say the car cost my employer $10k.

by guelo 9y ago

That's just not helpful. Money circulates around the economy. If I buy a $10k car I don't say the car cost my employer $10k.

chiefalchemist 9y ago

And the abstraction of the state having money is helpful? How so? It's fake. Words matter. Language matters. Ask Orwell. The point being when the abstraction is removed and the truth repeated, perceptions, opinions, and eventually the decisions and actions of citizens will change. As it is, the abstraction enables complacency. The government is not your employer. YOU are the government's employer. See? The conventional lexicon has confused you. Which, thank you, supports my original statement.

jcranmer 9y ago
> And the abstraction of the state having money is helpful? How so? It's fake. Words matter. Language matters. Ask Orwell. The state is a real, tangible entity that has a separate coexistence from the collective of individuals under its jurisdiction. The US is not a democracy--it is very intentionally not a democracy--it is a republic. What you are arguing, although you are using language to obfuscate the meaning, is that you personally own anything the state owns. But even if you take the mistaken view that the government is nothing more than the people it governs, that ownership is not personal, but collective.

gnode 9y ago

If I buy a $10k car, and expense it to my employer I would say the car cost my employer $10k. I may have been the one with agency, but the cost is not mine to bear. The idea of representative government, is that we're employing the government to decide how our money is spent.

chiefalchemist 9y ago
You hand your employee a credit card. They buy a car with it. They drive the car back to the office, hand you the keys and proclaim, "Look what I bought you." In your world the reply is, "Golly gee. Thanks. You're so good to me." In my world the obvious reply is, "Huh? What? Do you think I'm stupid?" Language is a tool, and it can also be a weapon. Orwell would disagree with one of us. I'm fairly confident it would not be me.
- gnode 9y ago
  I wasn't implying it was some outlandish misbehaviour. Company cars are a real and common occurance, as are other large business expenses, like plane tickets.