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Hey everyone! Author here. Happy to answer questions. Thanks for posting @tomcam! Just a quick note about me - I currently work with the great folks at common.

Hey everyone! Author here. Happy to answer questions. Thanks for posting @tomcam! Just a quick note about me - I currently work with the great folks at common.net running an ISP that is similar but not exactly like what's described here. Look us up if you're in East Bay maybe we can get you better Internet service! This site is not associated with common.net, though.

pstuart 9y ago
In Alameda and you use Go. Woot!
hutch120 9y ago
Hi Graham, nice site, love you are giving back! I've also done a few Ubiquity design/install projects. Couple of things I'd suggest. (take/or leave) You are clearly super knowledgeable in all the products you've mentioned, but it seems like the audience for this site is the newbie trying to break into the industry. With that in mind, I'd try to stick to a single product recommendation, and deep dive into it. For instance, in the pick a hardware platform you've listed four options, consider picking one, and if you feel the need to dump your extensive knowledge of the others, then perhaps do it in another section/addendum. Consider hosting this where you can build a community. Github pages does this sort of thing for free. Again, thanks and good luck with the site!
- grahamburger 9y ago
  Good advice, thanks. I have struggled throughout with knowing when to be more specific and when to be more general, although I do try to pepper in a lot of 'if you don't know what to do, do this' type advice. I've been trying to build the community around this matrix chatroom: https://riot.im/app/#/room/#startyourownisp:matrix.org https://riot.im/app/#/room/#startyourownisp:matrix.org I'm not really a developer by trade so Github isn't really a go-to solution for me, good thought though!
  - hutch120 9y ago
    Thanks for the reply. Github pages used to be aimed purely at developers, but I think it's pretty mainstream now. If you've managed to get a web site up, then you won't have any problem with this. Happy to help if you have any questions PM me. I checked out riot.im but honestly I found the interface really confusing. Also, the lack of integration to a major auth service like Google/Twitter/Github/etc is a real turn off for me.
    - grahamburger 9y ago
      Gotcha, makes sense. I'm hosting on Firebase right now which seems fine and is close enough to free. Would there be a tangible benefit to moving to Github Pages? It wouldn't be difficult, it's a static site built with Hugo.
      - jlgaddis 9y ago
        If what you have now works for you, there's no point in switching (especially just because someone on the Internet said so).
      - hutch120 9y ago
        The main tangible benefit is that others can directly interact with each other and the content in one place using the built in collaboration tools. It would be easy to move. Just upload the web site files to a Github repository with index.html in the root path, and turn on Github pages in the setting tab. Other benefits that immediately come to mind are: - Anyone can submit suggestions, these are called Pull Requests. - Eventually you can add trusted community members as collaborators and they can edit pages directly. - There is already a massive community that know this interface. - It's free for public sites. - Last but not least, it's super easy to edit the site, just do it directly in the browser, no need for builds, deploy scripts, etc.
    - ReverseCold 9y ago
      > I checked out riot.im but honestly I found the interface really confusing. Also, the lack of integration to a major auth service like Google/Twitter/Github/etc is a real turn off for me. Matrix is decentralized, using centralized auth wouldn't work. You could even host your own matrix homeserver to talk in that room. (like email, or XMPP)
Scarbutt 9y ago
What are the advantages of LTE for fixed wireless networks?
- grahamburger 9y ago
  Good question. Off the top of my head: 1) much better wireless performance, higher modulation at lower receive signal levels. 2) easier channel planning - you use the same channels across all your towers and the core figures it all out. 3) you can potentially get roaming agreements with carriers (I don't know of anyone who has successfully done this but apparently it's feasible) Big disadvantage is cost - you have to run a core which is very expensive ($100k+) Or you can use BaiCells and they'll rent you use of their core for fairly cheap.
  - Rjevski 9y ago
    I would very much recommend against this - off-the-shelf core networks are shit. Look up "SS7 vulnerabilities" on Google to see what I mean... and yeah your LTE core network would be based on that. LTE itself is good but you'd need to build a proper core network for it - at the moment none of the off-the-shelf gear you can buy is any good.
omot 9y ago
Hey Graham. Do you pay Comcast/AT&T to connect to their ISPs? If so how much? What is the benefit of setting up your own ISP if you need to connect to one of these giants anyways.
- grahamburger 9y ago
  In some cases yes you are buying an upstream connection from Comcast/AT&T/Centurylink/etc. I actually have a note about that specifically on the site, as it happens! (https://startyourownisp.com/posts/fiber-provider/#overview https://startyourownisp.com/posts/fiber-provider/#overview second paragraph) Things to note - you're not buying a regular residential or even a business line, you're (usually) buying a dedicated Internet Access line and dealing with an entirely different group for sales/support. It does seem kind of strange at first but I think the reality is that the raw bandwidth isn't one of the main costs for those companies, it's the support/last mile build&maintenance etc that's expensive to them - so if you're willing to give them some money and take that part off their hands they don't seem to mind. Also - there are plenty of other companies selling fiber that don't also sell residential Internet products, so you're not always buying from them.
  - larrydag 9y ago
    That is a really interesting nugget of information. Does this mean that a neighborhood could build a co-op ISP and share the costs?
    - zero_intp 9y ago
      yes.
newman314 9y ago
I know this varies greatly based on location but it would be good if you could include a section on legal challenges given that there are many municipalities actively trying to discourage any sort of competition. Secondly, looking at common.net, how did you arrive at 75Mbps as the offering speed?
- grahamburger 9y ago
  I actually have in my plan to include a section like that, not quite there yet though. But in general legal challenges are less of a problem than you might think - most of the legal challenges you hear about with running an ISP come from things like who owns/is allowed to use conduit, right of way for trenching new lines, those kinds of things. With wireless you sidestep all of that. 75mbps is what we feel like we can reasonably achieve across our entire user base. Most of our customers are up to double that.
  - grahamburger 9y ago
    Also I should add - what I've found is that the municipalities are somewhere between neutral and really excited to have another provider in town, as long as you're not putting too much ugly equipment on people's houses. Sometimes the municipality is a really great partner and will help find relay sites, etc. It's the incumbent cable cos who don't like the competition.
    - newman314 9y ago
      Cool, are you looking to expand inland (Danville, San Ramon etc.) at some point? I'd certainly be interested in an option other than Comcast. However, I do admit to being spoiled with the 200+Mbps that I'm currently getting.
jlev 9y ago
Hey Graham, I'm in Oakland in a six story building downtown. Currently have DSL with Sonic, but am getting impatient with their fiber rollout in the East Bay. Any chance of getting service from Common outside of Alameda?
- grahamburger 9y ago
  Yes. Sign up for the service on the site, that will get you in the queue. Also email me with your address (graham at common.net) and I'll take a look at the building specifically.
jfrankamp 9y ago
I noticed the part on IP, is it true that the termination points for a customer do not have a public ip address? Isn't that an issue for your customers?
- grahamburger 9y ago
  It is an issue, and it's a tricky one to solve. It's getting much harder to get a hold of public IPv4 addresses and lots of smaller providers are using NAT instead. It's not a total show stopper - the vast majority of customers don't even notice and only a few actually need it enough to not use the service, and for those you can probably come up with clever ways around it (like a VPN) but it's definitely a problem. I think the best way out is IPv6 (but of course we've been saying that for decades).
  - dboreham 9y ago
    Just be ready with a story when Law Enforcement show up asking you to identify whoever used one of your IPs to commit a crime on such and such a date in the past.
    - grahamburger 9y ago
      That's true, I've been there! I've never had them be unreasonable about the situation but maybe I've just been lucky. The real scary one was servicing a relay site on top of a bank late at night and the cops showing up guns blazing thinking the place was being robbed ;)
    - zie 9y ago
      I had US Secret Service show up at my office once, demanding information on an external NAT IP. We had 10k NAT'd devices behind that IP. Apparently some doofus wrote on some govt. website they were threatening the president. A warrant later (which took < 1hr to get!) I told them everything I could, which was "Oh that traffic was to this entirely different legal entity, you need to go talk to them now."
dboreham 9y ago
Hi, I've been doing this for ...um 15 years or so. Generally tried to exit the business because in our area it turns out to be a money pit. However, I notice you don't mention anything about interference : we found that even in a deep rural area this is a major headache. It can be hard to find even 40MHz of clean adjacent channels so delivering tens of megabits via P2MP is not so easy and that's before you look at the issues with air access control and half-duplex. The interference picture is always changing too so just because your network works today, doesn't mean it will tomorrow. You're made of stronger stuff than me to try it in an urban area!
- grahamburger 9y ago
  Yes interference and channel planning can be a big headache. I do have planned a section that will cover this but haven't finished it yet. I've typically gotten around interference problems by 1) using licensed (or at least not 5ghz, preferably full duplex) backhauls and 2) using AP antennas with narrow beamwidths (higher gain, less area covered.) I'm sure you're doing the same things if you've been doing it that long.
  - dboreham 9y ago
    Actually I didn't see anything about licensed spectrum on the site, but of course that helps with backhaul and high-end subscribers. For many years we really didn't see any interference issues with P2P links @5GHz but that has changed recently. We have been deploying dishes with shrouds to cut down on sidelobe gain. My experience has been that interference is as much a problem at the CPE side (and much harder to diagnose there) than at the AP. I've also noticed that with Ubiquity/Mikrotik-grade radios in the 5GHz spectrum you can easily get interference from your own co-located radios at the same site, using different channels (because they are not so good about suppressing out-of-band radiation).
    - d00bianista 9y ago
      Shrouds should help against out-of-band radiation. I'm no expert but I assume that they do more harm in a single radio environment than without but they should help when you have multiple radios next to each other.
hornd 9y ago
Hey! Just wanted to say that although you haven't come to my house yet, everyone I've talked to in Alameda loves you guys. Having worked at an ISP startup, I know how tough it is to succeed -- hope you guys manage!
afeezaziz 9y ago
Great work Graham! I have been following your blog. 1. What is your advice for WISP that operate internationally to get upstream connection? 2. Can you also include about using LTE instead of just WiFi?
- grahamburger 9y ago
  Good questions. I know very little about international fiber markets, unfortunately. I do have a fair amount of experience deploying LTE in fixed wireless environments, though. I'll work on adding some of that to the site and feel free to reach out to me with questions.
- Swannie 9y ago
  You'll need to do a lot of traffic analysis to make a cost/benefit analysis of purchasing international capacity. Transit is likely to be cheaper until you get big enough to hire someone to do this analysis for you. At that point, they will probably look at purchasing some small amount of transit from a larger ISP (e.g. Megaport, Verizon, etc) to allow you to peer freely with your largest sources of traffic. E.g. if you have a lot of Korean families who stream a lot from Korea, it might make sense to get a gig or two of bandwidth to Korea, and putting a router there to peer with Naver, etc. rather than paying for those 1 - 2 Gbps of transit. But it's probably not really going to make sense until you're in the 10's of Gbps.
thom_nic 9y ago
I noticed on [1] that you list 8.8.9.9 as Google's DNS server. Did you mean 8.8.4.4? If I `dig @8.8.9.9 ..` I get no response. [1] https://startyourownisp.com/posts/build-your-infrastructure/ https://startyourownisp.com/posts/build-your-infrastructure/
- grahamburger 9y ago
  Woops I think so! Thanks nice catch!
  - lucb1e 9y ago
    Why use Google DNS? We have no idea what's being done with the data, and 'apt install bind9' + two configuration options is enough to run your own.
    - grahamburger 9y ago
      Agreed that this is a better solution but the point of the site is to get from 0 to 1 customer as simply as possible and setting up a DNS server adds a complication. Another HN user recommended opennic, though - I might change the recommendation from Google to something like that.
      - lucb1e 9y ago
        I see. OpenDNS would be another, but I'm not sure who owns them (iirc they were bought by someone that made me go "ah, no more OpenDNS for me" but I might misremember). Opennic I didn't know of, I'll check that out next time I need a resolver somewhere :)
- saagarjha 9y ago
  They may have meant 8.8.8.8 as well.
nfritsche 9y ago
How dependent is this on flat land and no trees? This would be great for northwest Arkansas, but we have lots of trees and hills. We are stuck with only Cox, and ATT in some places.
- dboreham 9y ago
  Generally you need unobstructed line of sight, so you need to go around or above trees. Sometimes you can mount an antenna _on_ a tree, but only sometimes. Unfortunately, to rain on the parade a little: note that it is hard using wireless (due to technical limitations to do with Shannon capacity) to compete with a copper coax provider. It really doesn't work notwithstanding the OP's claim that they can deliver 75Mbits/s to subs. I really don't know how he is doing that unless they are all fed with dedicated point-to-point links (which won't scale and costs $$).
  - nfritsche 9y ago
    Not surprising, although I still believe their could be opportunity in the rural areas, whose only option is satellite, which is both expensive and slow. Just getting that line of site is difficult. Thanks for the info!
    - dboreham 9y ago
      Yes, WISP is fine when there is no terrestrial alternative. That's really its niche.
waffle_ss 9y ago
What an amazing thing you've done taking the time to share your knowledge for free with everyone - thank you! This is very timely for me. I actually had just started paying a consultant to help me plan out a WISP, because it's so overwhelming starting out because you don't even know what questions to ask to get started (the internet is a great resource for so many things... but much less helpful when you don't have well-formed questions!). So far everything I'm seeing lines up with what I've researched myself or what my consultant has helped me with, so this seems to be an amazing free resource! I even already learned something in the first couple sections - I had been using Google Earth Pro to scout potential tower locations, and I knew what a viewshed was, but I thought I was going to have to pay for ArcGIS or another program to generate them. For some reason I thought Google Earth Pro could only do elevation profiles! It's cool you mentioned using a drone; I was already thinking of doing that and it's awesome to know that's not a weird thing to do. Have you heard of drone photogrammetry[1] before? It's probably overkill but it seems like an interesting concept for generating high resolution viewsheds (i.e. taking foliage and other obstacles that won't show up on a topographic map into account). My consultant helped me find a fiber backhaul solution; CenturyLink fiber dominates my area so I'm either going to be buying transit directly from them or buying transport to an internet exchange at the nearest metro area (the latter sounds way more fun to me and has some interesting peering options). But I'm still at the point of evaluating the customer base. So one thing that I'd like to see is more details on how to make first contact with potential customers to gauge their feelings towards a new ISP. So far I'm thinking of buying a list of mailing address from a mailing list broker, then mailing out postcards with a link to a Google Forms survey (and maybe an alternate option of just calling me if they don't currently have internet service). But I don't know how this is typically done. I'd also like to see a section on skillsets that an ISP operator should develop. I started studying for the CCNA because I want to be able to wrap my head around the carrier-grade networking that will belie the business. It would be interesting to hear your opinion on how much you can punt on these kinds of skills vs. what you really need to know, or even when you should just hire the work out. I also signed up to take a course on fiber optic outside plant planning because some day I'd like to level up to being a FTTH ISP. That's a whole different ballgame since you basically have to operate a construction company to plow/blow/splice all the fiber, deal with all the permitting, insane CAPEX etc. I know that's getting way ahead of myself and I should just focus on only WISP-related things to start but that's what I wish I could do if I were a millionaire. But if you have any experience with fiber ISPs I would be really interested in seeing that on your website as well (later!). Another cool topic to cover (sorry if I missed it) would be the whole process of putting up an actual tower - I've heard that it can often be as cost-effective to erect your own rather than leasing (like pays for itself in 2-3 years). I was just reading a series of blog articles[2] a couple weeks ago by a guy who put up a ham radio tower that had lots of very interesting info and pics. [1]: https://cloudrf.com/drone_photogrammetry https://cloudrf.com/drone_photogrammetry [2]: https://morsetutor.com/2014/09/tower-time-part-1/ https://morsetutor.com/2014/09/tower-time-part-1/
mceoin 9y ago
I presume you're familiar with altheamesh.com? You might find them interesting (based locally)
earenndil 9y ago
Hi graham, really neat site! One recommendation, you currently recommend google dns. What do you think of opennic[1]? 1: https://www.opennic.org/ https://www.opennic.org/
- grahamburger 9y ago
  Great idea I'll take a look and consider changing the recommendation.
fishmeat 9y ago
I'm in East Bay, can I have a link?
- xf86alsa 9y ago
  https://common.net https://common.net
legostormtroopr 9y ago
I really just want to know what framework you use for the site - is it just Material Design?
- grahamburger 9y ago
  I'm using Hugo static site generator with this theme: https://github.com/digitalcraftsman/hugo-material-docs https://github.com/digitalcraftsman/hugo-material-docs
magneticmagnum 9y ago
Hi Graham, thanks for authoring and sharing such an interesting topic! My main question is, how is the latency of these wireless networks? How well do these roof antennas perform in rain or covered in snow? Is gaming suitable with wireless ISPs such as common.net? And finally, what are the biggest complaints from your customers?
- aphextron 9y ago
  Also very interested in knowing average latency numbers for your network, Graham.
  - grahamburger 9y ago
    Most of our customers see 3 to 12 ms round trip times to the edge of our network.
    - aphextron 9y ago
      That's incredible, thanks. Can't wait to dump Comcast.
- dboreham 9y ago
  No the OP but this is my thing so I'll answer: These numbers are from an 802.11ac based network using proprietary MAC (Mikrotik NStreme), YMMV. Here's a 2 mile link @780Mbps modulation rate, tested with ping -s 1500: 72 packets transmitted, 72 received, 0% packet loss, time 71108ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 1.051/3.132/26.567/4.466 ms Here's a 10 mile link @650Mbps modulation: 122 packets transmitted, 122 received, 0% packet loss, time 121164ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.984/2.174/20.479/3.260 ms And finally here's stats over the two links combined (the path between my office and civilization): 68 packets transmitted, 68 received, 0% packet loss, time 67102ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 1.755/4.471/14.968/3.658 ms Note that if you allow too much traffic on these links they will saturate and QoS will go to crap. So careful traffic shaping is in order. They are half-duplex so achievable throughput is much lower than the modulation rate (these links are delivering me around 250Mbits/s). At unlicensed frequencies (2-6GHz) snow and weather are generally not a problem. You do have to choose antenna design wisely : the satellite dish type antennas that have a separate reflector can get snowed up, but people here in snow country are aware of that issue and brush the snow away. Rain fade is not a practical problem : you need some link received power margin for reliable operation and the worst that happens is rain eats into that a bit. Lightning is a much bigger issue in my experience: you need to be aware of proper grounding techniques (which can be expensive) and you need to be prepared to replace some gear every year due to EMP damage. Also fyi you want to at all costs avoid deploying CPE antennas on a roof. The roof is a nightmare for access, insurance costs, risk of causing leaks, and potential injury. For that reason WISPs will try to mount on a eave, soffit etc rather on the roof surface. My son uses our network for gaming and while he does complain quite often about QoS, when I investigate the problem is _always_ with our upstream provider or the server end and never to do with our network. OP stated above that he is using licensed spectrum for backhaul (probably 11 or 18GHz) and therefore will have better latency (full-duplex radios and hence lower MAC overhead).
ac29 9y ago
Wow, I've been shopping for WISPs in the South Bay and pricing seems to be an order of magnitude higher ($20/Mbps/month or higher). What your secret? Shorter links and higher density?
bigbugbag 9y ago
Just so you know, your project is referenced on https://diyisp.org/ https://diyisp.org/ Also there's this mailing-list (in english) dedicated to sharing knowledge between DIY ISP, a database and map of DIY ISP[2], this series of blog posts (in french) documenting how to build an ISP[3] and a wiki page centralizing resources about building a non-profit ISP[4] on the FFDN[5] wiki (Non profit ISP Federation from France). [1]: https://lists.ffdn.org/wws/info/diy-isp https://lists.ffdn.org/wws/info/diy-isp [2]: https://db.ffdn.org/ https://db.ffdn.org/ [3]: http://blog.spyou.org/wordpress-mu/?s="comment+devenir+son+propre+fai" http://blog.spyou.org/wordpress-mu/?s="comment+devenir+son+p... [4]: https://www.ffdn.org/wiki/doku.php?id=documentation https://www.ffdn.org/wiki/doku.php?id=documentation [5]: https://www.ffdn.org/en https://www.ffdn.org/en
- grahamburger 9y ago
  Great info thank you! And thanks for the link back. All great info and I've had a lot of questions from people outside the US which is unfortunately where most of my experience is so these will be great resources to hand out.

pstuart 9y ago

In Alameda and you use Go. Woot!

hutch120 9y ago

Hi Graham, nice site, love you are giving back! I've also done a few Ubiquity design/install projects. Couple of things I'd suggest. (take/or leave) You are clearly super knowledgeable in all the products you've mentioned, but it seems like the audience for this site is the newbie trying to break into the industry. With that in mind, I'd try to stick to a single product recommendation, and deep dive into it. For instance, in the pick a hardware platform you've listed four options, consider picking one, and if you feel the need to dump your extensive knowledge of the others, then perhaps do it in another section/addendum. Consider hosting this where you can build a community. Github pages does this sort of thing for free. Again, thanks and good luck with the site!

grahamburger 9y ago
Good advice, thanks. I have struggled throughout with knowing when to be more specific and when to be more general, although I do try to pepper in a lot of 'if you don't know what to do, do this' type advice. I've been trying to build the community around this matrix chatroom: https://riot.im/app/#/room/#startyourownisp:matrix.org https://riot.im/app/#/room/#startyourownisp:matrix.org I'm not really a developer by trade so Github isn't really a go-to solution for me, good thought though!
- hutch120 9y ago
  Thanks for the reply. Github pages used to be aimed purely at developers, but I think it's pretty mainstream now. If you've managed to get a web site up, then you won't have any problem with this. Happy to help if you have any questions PM me. I checked out riot.im but honestly I found the interface really confusing. Also, the lack of integration to a major auth service like Google/Twitter/Github/etc is a real turn off for me.
  - grahamburger 9y ago
    Gotcha, makes sense. I'm hosting on Firebase right now which seems fine and is close enough to free. Would there be a tangible benefit to moving to Github Pages? It wouldn't be difficult, it's a static site built with Hugo.
    - jlgaddis 9y ago
      If what you have now works for you, there's no point in switching (especially just because someone on the Internet said so).
    - hutch120 9y ago
      The main tangible benefit is that others can directly interact with each other and the content in one place using the built in collaboration tools. It would be easy to move. Just upload the web site files to a Github repository with index.html in the root path, and turn on Github pages in the setting tab. Other benefits that immediately come to mind are: - Anyone can submit suggestions, these are called Pull Requests. - Eventually you can add trusted community members as collaborators and they can edit pages directly. - There is already a massive community that know this interface. - It's free for public sites. - Last but not least, it's super easy to edit the site, just do it directly in the browser, no need for builds, deploy scripts, etc.
  - ReverseCold 9y ago
    > I checked out riot.im but honestly I found the interface really confusing. Also, the lack of integration to a major auth service like Google/Twitter/Github/etc is a real turn off for me. Matrix is decentralized, using centralized auth wouldn't work. You could even host your own matrix homeserver to talk in that room. (like email, or XMPP)

Scarbutt 9y ago

What are the advantages of LTE for fixed wireless networks?

grahamburger 9y ago
Good question. Off the top of my head: 1) much better wireless performance, higher modulation at lower receive signal levels. 2) easier channel planning - you use the same channels across all your towers and the core figures it all out. 3) you can potentially get roaming agreements with carriers (I don't know of anyone who has successfully done this but apparently it's feasible) Big disadvantage is cost - you have to run a core which is very expensive ($100k+) Or you can use BaiCells and they'll rent you use of their core for fairly cheap.
- Rjevski 9y ago
  I would very much recommend against this - off-the-shelf core networks are shit. Look up "SS7 vulnerabilities" on Google to see what I mean... and yeah your LTE core network would be based on that. LTE itself is good but you'd need to build a proper core network for it - at the moment none of the off-the-shelf gear you can buy is any good.

omot 9y ago

Hey Graham. Do you pay Comcast/AT&T to connect to their ISPs? If so how much? What is the benefit of setting up your own ISP if you need to connect to one of these giants anyways.

grahamburger 9y ago
In some cases yes you are buying an upstream connection from Comcast/AT&T/Centurylink/etc. I actually have a note about that specifically on the site, as it happens! (https://startyourownisp.com/posts/fiber-provider/#overview https://startyourownisp.com/posts/fiber-provider/#overview second paragraph) Things to note - you're not buying a regular residential or even a business line, you're (usually) buying a dedicated Internet Access line and dealing with an entirely different group for sales/support. It does seem kind of strange at first but I think the reality is that the raw bandwidth isn't one of the main costs for those companies, it's the support/last mile build&maintenance etc that's expensive to them - so if you're willing to give them some money and take that part off their hands they don't seem to mind. Also - there are plenty of other companies selling fiber that don't also sell residential Internet products, so you're not always buying from them.
- larrydag 9y ago
  That is a really interesting nugget of information. Does this mean that a neighborhood could build a co-op ISP and share the costs?
  - zero_intp 9y ago
    yes.

newman314 9y ago

I know this varies greatly based on location but it would be good if you could include a section on legal challenges given that there are many municipalities actively trying to discourage any sort of competition. Secondly, looking at common.net, how did you arrive at 75Mbps as the offering speed?

grahamburger 9y ago
I actually have in my plan to include a section like that, not quite there yet though. But in general legal challenges are less of a problem than you might think - most of the legal challenges you hear about with running an ISP come from things like who owns/is allowed to use conduit, right of way for trenching new lines, those kinds of things. With wireless you sidestep all of that. 75mbps is what we feel like we can reasonably achieve across our entire user base. Most of our customers are up to double that.
- grahamburger 9y ago
  Also I should add - what I've found is that the municipalities are somewhere between neutral and really excited to have another provider in town, as long as you're not putting too much ugly equipment on people's houses. Sometimes the municipality is a really great partner and will help find relay sites, etc. It's the incumbent cable cos who don't like the competition.
  - newman314 9y ago
    Cool, are you looking to expand inland (Danville, San Ramon etc.) at some point? I'd certainly be interested in an option other than Comcast. However, I do admit to being spoiled with the 200+Mbps that I'm currently getting.

jlev 9y ago

Hey Graham, I'm in Oakland in a six story building downtown. Currently have DSL with Sonic, but am getting impatient with their fiber rollout in the East Bay. Any chance of getting service from Common outside of Alameda?

grahamburger 9y ago
Yes. Sign up for the service on the site, that will get you in the queue. Also email me with your address (graham at common.net) and I'll take a look at the building specifically.

jfrankamp 9y ago

I noticed the part on IP, is it true that the termination points for a customer do not have a public ip address? Isn't that an issue for your customers?

grahamburger 9y ago
It is an issue, and it's a tricky one to solve. It's getting much harder to get a hold of public IPv4 addresses and lots of smaller providers are using NAT instead. It's not a total show stopper - the vast majority of customers don't even notice and only a few actually need it enough to not use the service, and for those you can probably come up with clever ways around it (like a VPN) but it's definitely a problem. I think the best way out is IPv6 (but of course we've been saying that for decades).
- dboreham 9y ago
  Just be ready with a story when Law Enforcement show up asking you to identify whoever used one of your IPs to commit a crime on such and such a date in the past.
  - grahamburger 9y ago
    That's true, I've been there! I've never had them be unreasonable about the situation but maybe I've just been lucky. The real scary one was servicing a relay site on top of a bank late at night and the cops showing up guns blazing thinking the place was being robbed ;)
  - zie 9y ago
    I had US Secret Service show up at my office once, demanding information on an external NAT IP. We had 10k NAT'd devices behind that IP. Apparently some doofus wrote on some govt. website they were threatening the president. A warrant later (which took < 1hr to get!) I told them everything I could, which was "Oh that traffic was to this entirely different legal entity, you need to go talk to them now."

dboreham 9y ago

Hi, I've been doing this for ...um 15 years or so. Generally tried to exit the business because in our area it turns out to be a money pit. However, I notice you don't mention anything about interference : we found that even in a deep rural area this is a major headache. It can be hard to find even 40MHz of clean adjacent channels so delivering tens of megabits via P2MP is not so easy and that's before you look at the issues with air access control and half-duplex. The interference picture is always changing too so just because your network works today, doesn't mean it will tomorrow. You're made of stronger stuff than me to try it in an urban area!

grahamburger 9y ago
Yes interference and channel planning can be a big headache. I do have planned a section that will cover this but haven't finished it yet. I've typically gotten around interference problems by 1) using licensed (or at least not 5ghz, preferably full duplex) backhauls and 2) using AP antennas with narrow beamwidths (higher gain, less area covered.) I'm sure you're doing the same things if you've been doing it that long.
- dboreham 9y ago
  Actually I didn't see anything about licensed spectrum on the site, but of course that helps with backhaul and high-end subscribers. For many years we really didn't see any interference issues with P2P links @5GHz but that has changed recently. We have been deploying dishes with shrouds to cut down on sidelobe gain. My experience has been that interference is as much a problem at the CPE side (and much harder to diagnose there) than at the AP. I've also noticed that with Ubiquity/Mikrotik-grade radios in the 5GHz spectrum you can easily get interference from your own co-located radios at the same site, using different channels (because they are not so good about suppressing out-of-band radiation).
  - d00bianista 9y ago
    Shrouds should help against out-of-band radiation. I'm no expert but I assume that they do more harm in a single radio environment than without but they should help when you have multiple radios next to each other.

hornd 9y ago

Hey! Just wanted to say that although you haven't come to my house yet, everyone I've talked to in Alameda loves you guys. Having worked at an ISP startup, I know how tough it is to succeed -- hope you guys manage!

afeezaziz 9y ago

Great work Graham! I have been following your blog. 1. What is your advice for WISP that operate internationally to get upstream connection? 2. Can you also include about using LTE instead of just WiFi?

grahamburger 9y ago
Good questions. I know very little about international fiber markets, unfortunately. I do have a fair amount of experience deploying LTE in fixed wireless environments, though. I'll work on adding some of that to the site and feel free to reach out to me with questions.
Swannie 9y ago
You'll need to do a lot of traffic analysis to make a cost/benefit analysis of purchasing international capacity. Transit is likely to be cheaper until you get big enough to hire someone to do this analysis for you. At that point, they will probably look at purchasing some small amount of transit from a larger ISP (e.g. Megaport, Verizon, etc) to allow you to peer freely with your largest sources of traffic. E.g. if you have a lot of Korean families who stream a lot from Korea, it might make sense to get a gig or two of bandwidth to Korea, and putting a router there to peer with Naver, etc. rather than paying for those 1 - 2 Gbps of transit. But it's probably not really going to make sense until you're in the 10's of Gbps.

thom_nic 9y ago

I noticed on [1] that you list 8.8.9.9 as Google's DNS server. Did you mean 8.8.4.4? If I `dig @8.8.9.9 ..` I get no response. [1] https://startyourownisp.com/posts/build-your-infrastructure/ https://startyourownisp.com/posts/build-your-infrastructure/

grahamburger 9y ago
Woops I think so! Thanks nice catch!
- lucb1e 9y ago
  Why use Google DNS? We have no idea what's being done with the data, and 'apt install bind9' + two configuration options is enough to run your own.
  - grahamburger 9y ago
    Agreed that this is a better solution but the point of the site is to get from 0 to 1 customer as simply as possible and setting up a DNS server adds a complication. Another HN user recommended opennic, though - I might change the recommendation from Google to something like that.
    - lucb1e 9y ago
      I see. OpenDNS would be another, but I'm not sure who owns them (iirc they were bought by someone that made me go "ah, no more OpenDNS for me" but I might misremember). Opennic I didn't know of, I'll check that out next time I need a resolver somewhere :)
saagarjha 9y ago
They may have meant 8.8.8.8 as well.

nfritsche 9y ago

How dependent is this on flat land and no trees? This would be great for northwest Arkansas, but we have lots of trees and hills. We are stuck with only Cox, and ATT in some places.

dboreham 9y ago
Generally you need unobstructed line of sight, so you need to go around or above trees. Sometimes you can mount an antenna _on_ a tree, but only sometimes. Unfortunately, to rain on the parade a little: note that it is hard using wireless (due to technical limitations to do with Shannon capacity) to compete with a copper coax provider. It really doesn't work notwithstanding the OP's claim that they can deliver 75Mbits/s to subs. I really don't know how he is doing that unless they are all fed with dedicated point-to-point links (which won't scale and costs $$).
- nfritsche 9y ago
  Not surprising, although I still believe their could be opportunity in the rural areas, whose only option is satellite, which is both expensive and slow. Just getting that line of site is difficult. Thanks for the info!
  - dboreham 9y ago
    Yes, WISP is fine when there is no terrestrial alternative. That's really its niche.

waffle_ss 9y ago

What an amazing thing you've done taking the time to share your knowledge for free with everyone - thank you! This is very timely for me. I actually had just started paying a consultant to help me plan out a WISP, because it's so overwhelming starting out because you don't even know what questions to ask to get started (the internet is a great resource for so many things... but much less helpful when you don't have well-formed questions!). So far everything I'm seeing lines up with what I've researched myself or what my consultant has helped me with, so this seems to be an amazing free resource! I even already learned something in the first couple sections - I had been using Google Earth Pro to scout potential tower locations, and I knew what a viewshed was, but I thought I was going to have to pay for ArcGIS or another program to generate them. For some reason I thought Google Earth Pro could only do elevation profiles! It's cool you mentioned using a drone; I was already thinking of doing that and it's awesome to know that's not a weird thing to do. Have you heard of drone photogrammetry[1] before? It's probably overkill but it seems like an interesting concept for generating high resolution viewsheds (i.e. taking foliage and other obstacles that won't show up on a topographic map into account). My consultant helped me find a fiber backhaul solution; CenturyLink fiber dominates my area so I'm either going to be buying transit directly from them or buying transport to an internet exchange at the nearest metro area (the latter sounds way more fun to me and has some interesting peering options). But I'm still at the point of evaluating the customer base. So one thing that I'd like to see is more details on how to make first contact with potential customers to gauge their feelings towards a new ISP. So far I'm thinking of buying a list of mailing address from a mailing list broker, then mailing out postcards with a link to a Google Forms survey (and maybe an alternate option of just calling me if they don't currently have internet service). But I don't know how this is typically done. I'd also like to see a section on skillsets that an ISP operator should develop. I started studying for the CCNA because I want to be able to wrap my head around the carrier-grade networking that will belie the business. It would be interesting to hear your opinion on how much you can punt on these kinds of skills vs. what you really need to know, or even when you should just hire the work out. I also signed up to take a course on fiber optic outside plant planning because some day I'd like to level up to being a FTTH ISP. That's a whole different ballgame since you basically have to operate a construction company to plow/blow/splice all the fiber, deal with all the permitting, insane CAPEX etc. I know that's getting way ahead of myself and I should just focus on only WISP-related things to start but that's what I wish I could do if I were a millionaire. But if you have any experience with fiber ISPs I would be really interested in seeing that on your website as well (later!). Another cool topic to cover (sorry if I missed it) would be the whole process of putting up an actual tower - I've heard that it can often be as cost-effective to erect your own rather than leasing (like pays for itself in 2-3 years). I was just reading a series of blog articles[2] a couple weeks ago by a guy who put up a ham radio tower that had lots of very interesting info and pics. [1]: https://cloudrf.com/drone_photogrammetry https://cloudrf.com/drone_photogrammetry [2]: https://morsetutor.com/2014/09/tower-time-part-1/ https://morsetutor.com/2014/09/tower-time-part-1/

mceoin 9y ago

I presume you're familiar with altheamesh.com? You might find them interesting (based locally)

earenndil 9y ago

Hi graham, really neat site! One recommendation, you currently recommend google dns. What do you think of opennic[1]? 1: https://www.opennic.org/ https://www.opennic.org/

grahamburger 9y ago
Great idea I'll take a look and consider changing the recommendation.

fishmeat 9y ago

I'm in East Bay, can I have a link?

xf86alsa 9y ago
https://common.net https://common.net

legostormtroopr 9y ago

I really just want to know what framework you use for the site - is it just Material Design?

grahamburger 9y ago
I'm using Hugo static site generator with this theme: https://github.com/digitalcraftsman/hugo-material-docs https://github.com/digitalcraftsman/hugo-material-docs

magneticmagnum 9y ago

Hi Graham, thanks for authoring and sharing such an interesting topic! My main question is, how is the latency of these wireless networks? How well do these roof antennas perform in rain or covered in snow? Is gaming suitable with wireless ISPs such as common.net? And finally, what are the biggest complaints from your customers?

aphextron 9y ago
Also very interested in knowing average latency numbers for your network, Graham.
- grahamburger 9y ago
  Most of our customers see 3 to 12 ms round trip times to the edge of our network.
  - aphextron 9y ago
    That's incredible, thanks. Can't wait to dump Comcast.
dboreham 9y ago
No the OP but this is my thing so I'll answer: These numbers are from an 802.11ac based network using proprietary MAC (Mikrotik NStreme), YMMV. Here's a 2 mile link @780Mbps modulation rate, tested with ping -s 1500: 72 packets transmitted, 72 received, 0% packet loss, time 71108ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 1.051/3.132/26.567/4.466 ms Here's a 10 mile link @650Mbps modulation: 122 packets transmitted, 122 received, 0% packet loss, time 121164ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.984/2.174/20.479/3.260 ms And finally here's stats over the two links combined (the path between my office and civilization): 68 packets transmitted, 68 received, 0% packet loss, time 67102ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 1.755/4.471/14.968/3.658 ms Note that if you allow too much traffic on these links they will saturate and QoS will go to crap. So careful traffic shaping is in order. They are half-duplex so achievable throughput is much lower than the modulation rate (these links are delivering me around 250Mbits/s). At unlicensed frequencies (2-6GHz) snow and weather are generally not a problem. You do have to choose antenna design wisely : the satellite dish type antennas that have a separate reflector can get snowed up, but people here in snow country are aware of that issue and brush the snow away. Rain fade is not a practical problem : you need some link received power margin for reliable operation and the worst that happens is rain eats into that a bit. Lightning is a much bigger issue in my experience: you need to be aware of proper grounding techniques (which can be expensive) and you need to be prepared to replace some gear every year due to EMP damage. Also fyi you want to at all costs avoid deploying CPE antennas on a roof. The roof is a nightmare for access, insurance costs, risk of causing leaks, and potential injury. For that reason WISPs will try to mount on a eave, soffit etc rather on the roof surface. My son uses our network for gaming and while he does complain quite often about QoS, when I investigate the problem is _always_ with our upstream provider or the server end and never to do with our network. OP stated above that he is using licensed spectrum for backhaul (probably 11 or 18GHz) and therefore will have better latency (full-duplex radios and hence lower MAC overhead).

ac29 9y ago

Wow, I've been shopping for WISPs in the South Bay and pricing seems to be an order of magnitude higher ($20/Mbps/month or higher). What your secret? Shorter links and higher density?

bigbugbag 9y ago

Just so you know, your project is referenced on https://diyisp.org/ https://diyisp.org/ Also there's this mailing-list (in english) dedicated to sharing knowledge between DIY ISP, a database and map of DIY ISP[2], this series of blog posts (in french) documenting how to build an ISP[3] and a wiki page centralizing resources about building a non-profit ISP[4] on the FFDN[5] wiki (Non profit ISP Federation from France). [1]: https://lists.ffdn.org/wws/info/diy-isp https://lists.ffdn.org/wws/info/diy-isp [2]: https://db.ffdn.org/ https://db.ffdn.org/ [3]: http://blog.spyou.org/wordpress-mu/?s="comment+devenir+son+propre+fai" http://blog.spyou.org/wordpress-mu/?s="comment+devenir+son+p... [4]: https://www.ffdn.org/wiki/doku.php?id=documentation https://www.ffdn.org/wiki/doku.php?id=documentation [5]: https://www.ffdn.org/en https://www.ffdn.org/en

grahamburger 9y ago
Great info thank you! And thanks for the link back. All great info and I've had a lot of questions from people outside the US which is unfortunately where most of my experience is so these will be great resources to hand out.