7 ms·

Can HN please stop it with this "not owning a car is virtuous" shtick? I went most of my younger life not having a car, only learning to drive at age 28. I live

by Noos 9y ago

Can HN please stop it with this "not owning a car is virtuous" shtick? I went most of my younger life not having a car, only learning to drive at age 28. I lived in a new england suburb close enough to go to my work and shopping services at a ten minute walk at the time, and it still was horrid. People here don't get how limited your life is without a car. You are limited to a ten-fifteen mile radius for everything, unless you use inefficient public transport which tacks on a huge time tax for even basic trips. You are captive to that transport, which means something like being called in is hard to impossible, as well as many duties of your workplace; dropping deposits off to a bank after hours as a manager, for example. That transport doesn't even expand your range that much, maybe one or two towns over; the time for further is so long as to be prohibitive. Even with walking, you wind up spending far more time and expense on basic tasks. Instead of shopping one day you need to shop five, just because you can't fit more than a couple bags of goods. If you are on the bus, you can't even easily use perishables; 30-45 min one way is the norm. You can't do things like buy a mattress without tacked on delivery fees and more time spent waiting to receive it. If anything happens where you simply can't walk like doctor or dentist visits (because doctors don't always stay in walking distance of most people) that's an expensive cab or uber both ways. Sometimes its even worse...jury duty can be in the county courthouse 30 min by car and an hour and a half by bus. You have no social life with no car. Not every town can simply cluster everything in one place; the downtown can easily be 30 minutes away from where people live. It took me an hour to walk to the comic shop one way; the bus would had made that longer, not shorter. Dates are impossible because of that; if the nearest date spot or bar isn't within five minutes, what do you do? A life without personal cars would be a rather limited and even serfish one. Everyone assumes driverless cars might save us, but they have yet to prove they can even navigate a highway during a New England winter, which is what you'd need to do to replace a commute. People talk about bicycles, but 0 degree or snowy weather makes that horrid, as well as high heat. Please stop assuming cars are this evil thing that more walking and biking will solve; they wont, not at all.

droopyEyelids 9y ago
You're in a tough spot because where you live forces you to have a car. Nothing wrong with that. But not having a car is virtuous! It takes an incredible toll on our world to enable cars. Mining is the most polluting industry of all time, followed closely by oil extraction and then refining. Then you gotta burn all that oil to actually drive the car.
contingencies 9y ago
Counter point. Late 30s here, family, no car, no license. I use cabs all the time, it's great. I have a fine social life and can drink safely. I can rent houses and move about for work, then change countries without offloading assets at fire-sale prices. I choose not to live in an unpleasant climate, so snow is a non-issue for me. Have you considered the option that maybe you just don't get it? Cars are responsible for many problems including wasted space, noise, visual and air pollution, danger, and unpleasant urban space breakdowns. The Highway and Automobile culture are symbols of totalitarian cultures which deny people more sustainable and equitable alternatives for mobility and transport - Vandana Shiva, February 19, 2004. The reality is that most people live in dense Asian urban environments, and this trend is increasing. More and more people rely solely on public transport, and this is a good thing for society and the environment. If everyone carried on like Americans or Australians, global warming would be insane. Let's encourage pluralism and change. Cars have had their chance - the 1950s called and wants its suburban utopia back.
- Nition 9y ago
  > noise, visual and air pollution, danger, How is calling a taxi every time you need a car any better than using a car you own in these areas? I do agree that the need for parking spaces is improved.
  - sagarm 9y ago
    Reduced need to dedicate public space to storing private vehicles, a more efficient fleet (since they're incentivizes to optimize for cost/mi), no time spent looking or paying for parking, no need to maintain or fuel a vehicle, reduced risk of impaired driving, more experienced/capable drivers, freedom to switch between transit modes (cycle/walk somewhere but call a car to get back due to time of day/weather), often cheaper than owning a vehicle after considering all costs (depreciation, maintenance, insurance). Outside a sufficiently dense city the pros might not outweigh the cons, but if walking/cycling/transit can cover most of your travel you probably don't need a car for the other half. I only have one for leaving the the city.
- Noos 9y ago
verylittlemeat 9y ago
I'm in my 30s / no license / live in nyc my whole life I would be surprised to learn someone over the age of 16 doesn't have their license in a new england suburb. In my limited experience public transit is terrible in smaller US cities. The truth is in NYC I don't even think about owning a car. In fact the opposite is true, sometimes I think to myself "wow, I'm so glad I can live my life and don't have to worry about all that car related stuff." I'm not saying that's true anywhere else. I'm not telling you to feel guilty about owning a car. All I'm saying is that in NYC in 2018, no, life really isn't limited without a car. This isn't virtue signaling this is a calculated part of life for many people living in major cities. Public transit isn't perfect but the cost/benefit of car ownership overhead just isn't worth it in some places.
- autokad 9y ago
  Edit: I retract what I said below taking verylittlemeat's comments into account. i dont know what the value of 'i live in nyc and i dont need a car' provides. everyone already knows most people in nyc doesnt need a car. the problem is getting people in the densely packed urban areas to understand not all people can (or wants to) live without a car. likewise europeans, we get it, a lot of you dont need a car. there is very few places in the US most people can function without a car. Philadelphia, NYC, and DC that I can think of. I guess SF, but walking around there was really hard for me. In Philly, I can walk nearly everywhere and get what I need. like you, it would cost me a ton of money even if I were given a car. I dont need it, and I dont want one. However, I am also a bit trapped in the city. if I want to do any hiking or anything 'outdoorsy', I either have to ask someone to give me a ride or I simply cant do it.
  - verylittlemeat 9y ago
    So then who exactly is the OP arguing against? Who here is arguing people living in suburbs with no public transit should give up their cars? The OP argues not owning a car is a "virtuous shtick" and then: "You have no social life with no car" and "People here [hacker news] don't get how limited your life is without a car." Such ridiculous claims deserve to be challenged since the OP seems to be speaking about car ownership in general, not just people living in suburbs.
tasuki 9y ago
> A life without personal cars would be a rather limited and even serfish one. This is highly dependent on your location and life circumstances. I live in Eastern Europe, have resources to easily buy a couple of cars, yet choose not to. I prefer to walk or cycle. > People talk about bicycles, but 0 degree or snowy weather makes that horrid In Amsterdam, people cycle in -10°C when there's 10cm of snow on the ground (I did so myself). While a little unpleasant, apart from walking it was the only viable means of transport: the metro and trains were cancelled because of snow, and cars and buses were mostly stuck in traffic jams because there were so many crashes everywhere. (Someone tell the Dutch about winter tires!)
- Noos 9y ago
  I have walked in that temperature. Its only something the young and very healthy can do, and the wind cuts like a knife. I wouldn't bike in that weather due to wind chill and the slushy nature of most roads, as well as the fact its very hilly where I live. I cannot see an entire society doing this, in areas that range from small towns to medium sized cities.
  - nemetroid 9y ago
    > I have walked in that temperature. Its only something the young and very healthy can do, and the wind cuts like a knife. The wind doesn't cut through proper clothes. I try to avoid the roads as well, but the bike paths work well where I live, even when the temperature goes down to -20°C.
  - emj 9y ago
    You just need some extra clothes to handle -18°C no problem at all IMHO, and as long as the temprature is below freezing you will have no problem with shitty roads. I would say the winter is the best season to bicycle, you can go everywhere.
    - sethammons 9y ago
      I'm going to assume you're unfamiliar with being poor. I recall my shoe's sole could flap open and let in snow and the only clothes I had were the pair of jeans that I had on (that were wet from snowmelt) and a crappy jacket. Just getting some extra clothes was not as easy as going down to REI. And if the weather fluctuates from below freezing to above, you have unforgiving ice that cannot be cycled upon. Sorry for an off topic rant. Being poor and cold and cycling struck a cord from my youth.
dionidium 9y ago
>Not every town can simply cluster everything in one place Of course they can. Why can't they? They have chosen not to. We can agree on that. But you think they can't? Why not? What do you think people did before cars?
maccard 9y ago
All of your complaints are US centric. I'm visiting the US right now for the first time, and it's incredible how reliant on cars you are. We had to drive for dinner tonight, and we did not see _one_ pedestrian. In the UK, a 10 mile radius will probably encompass 4 or 5 different towns, each of which will have their own centre, and will provide _most_ of what you require, and public transport is sufficient for most people (there will always be exceptions). > A life without personal cars would be a rather limited and even serfish one. I invite you to come and live in the UK. Many of the cities, and even towns, are perfectly liveable in without personal cars. Yes there are things you can do with a personal car that you can't do without one, but that applies to most products in our lives.
fulafel 9y ago
Is there an argument against "not owning a car is virtuous" here? "The world owes me year round luxury climate controlled transport in Maine"? Daily private car use is nearly always ecologically unsustainable. Refraining from selfish acts, and accepting some discomfort, to benefit others is pretty close to the dictionary definition of virtuous.

by Noos 9y ago

droopyEyelids 9y ago

You're in a tough spot because where you live forces you to have a car. Nothing wrong with that. But not having a car is virtuous! It takes an incredible toll on our world to enable cars. Mining is the most polluting industry of all time, followed closely by oil extraction and then refining. Then you gotta burn all that oil to actually drive the car.

contingencies 9y ago

Counter point. Late 30s here, family, no car, no license. I use cabs all the time, it's great. I have a fine social life and can drink safely. I can rent houses and move about for work, then change countries without offloading assets at fire-sale prices. I choose not to live in an unpleasant climate, so snow is a non-issue for me. Have you considered the option that maybe you just don't get it? Cars are responsible for many problems including wasted space, noise, visual and air pollution, danger, and unpleasant urban space breakdowns. The Highway and Automobile culture are symbols of totalitarian cultures which deny people more sustainable and equitable alternatives for mobility and transport - Vandana Shiva, February 19, 2004. The reality is that most people live in dense Asian urban environments, and this trend is increasing. More and more people rely solely on public transport, and this is a good thing for society and the environment. If everyone carried on like Americans or Australians, global warming would be insane. Let's encourage pluralism and change. Cars have had their chance - the 1950s called and wants its suburban utopia back.

Nition 9y ago
> noise, visual and air pollution, danger, How is calling a taxi every time you need a car any better than using a car you own in these areas? I do agree that the need for parking spaces is improved.
- sagarm 9y ago
  Reduced need to dedicate public space to storing private vehicles, a more efficient fleet (since they're incentivizes to optimize for cost/mi), no time spent looking or paying for parking, no need to maintain or fuel a vehicle, reduced risk of impaired driving, more experienced/capable drivers, freedom to switch between transit modes (cycle/walk somewhere but call a car to get back due to time of day/weather), often cheaper than owning a vehicle after considering all costs (depreciation, maintenance, insurance). Outside a sufficiently dense city the pros might not outweigh the cons, but if walking/cycling/transit can cover most of your travel you probably don't need a car for the other half. I only have one for leaving the the city.
Noos 9y ago

verylittlemeat 9y ago

I'm in my 30s / no license / live in nyc my whole life I would be surprised to learn someone over the age of 16 doesn't have their license in a new england suburb. In my limited experience public transit is terrible in smaller US cities. The truth is in NYC I don't even think about owning a car. In fact the opposite is true, sometimes I think to myself "wow, I'm so glad I can live my life and don't have to worry about all that car related stuff." I'm not saying that's true anywhere else. I'm not telling you to feel guilty about owning a car. All I'm saying is that in NYC in 2018, no, life really isn't limited without a car. This isn't virtue signaling this is a calculated part of life for many people living in major cities. Public transit isn't perfect but the cost/benefit of car ownership overhead just isn't worth it in some places.

autokad 9y ago
Edit: I retract what I said below taking verylittlemeat's comments into account. i dont know what the value of 'i live in nyc and i dont need a car' provides. everyone already knows most people in nyc doesnt need a car. the problem is getting people in the densely packed urban areas to understand not all people can (or wants to) live without a car. likewise europeans, we get it, a lot of you dont need a car. there is very few places in the US most people can function without a car. Philadelphia, NYC, and DC that I can think of. I guess SF, but walking around there was really hard for me. In Philly, I can walk nearly everywhere and get what I need. like you, it would cost me a ton of money even if I were given a car. I dont need it, and I dont want one. However, I am also a bit trapped in the city. if I want to do any hiking or anything 'outdoorsy', I either have to ask someone to give me a ride or I simply cant do it.
- verylittlemeat 9y ago
  So then who exactly is the OP arguing against? Who here is arguing people living in suburbs with no public transit should give up their cars? The OP argues not owning a car is a "virtuous shtick" and then: "You have no social life with no car" and "People here [hacker news] don't get how limited your life is without a car." Such ridiculous claims deserve to be challenged since the OP seems to be speaking about car ownership in general, not just people living in suburbs.

tasuki 9y ago

> A life without personal cars would be a rather limited and even serfish one. This is highly dependent on your location and life circumstances. I live in Eastern Europe, have resources to easily buy a couple of cars, yet choose not to. I prefer to walk or cycle. > People talk about bicycles, but 0 degree or snowy weather makes that horrid In Amsterdam, people cycle in -10°C when there's 10cm of snow on the ground (I did so myself). While a little unpleasant, apart from walking it was the only viable means of transport: the metro and trains were cancelled because of snow, and cars and buses were mostly stuck in traffic jams because there were so many crashes everywhere. (Someone tell the Dutch about winter tires!)

Noos 9y ago
I have walked in that temperature. Its only something the young and very healthy can do, and the wind cuts like a knife. I wouldn't bike in that weather due to wind chill and the slushy nature of most roads, as well as the fact its very hilly where I live. I cannot see an entire society doing this, in areas that range from small towns to medium sized cities.
- nemetroid 9y ago
  > I have walked in that temperature. Its only something the young and very healthy can do, and the wind cuts like a knife. The wind doesn't cut through proper clothes. I try to avoid the roads as well, but the bike paths work well where I live, even when the temperature goes down to -20°C.
- emj 9y ago
  You just need some extra clothes to handle -18°C no problem at all IMHO, and as long as the temprature is below freezing you will have no problem with shitty roads. I would say the winter is the best season to bicycle, you can go everywhere.
  - sethammons 9y ago
    I'm going to assume you're unfamiliar with being poor. I recall my shoe's sole could flap open and let in snow and the only clothes I had were the pair of jeans that I had on (that were wet from snowmelt) and a crappy jacket. Just getting some extra clothes was not as easy as going down to REI. And if the weather fluctuates from below freezing to above, you have unforgiving ice that cannot be cycled upon. Sorry for an off topic rant. Being poor and cold and cycling struck a cord from my youth.

dionidium 9y ago

>Not every town can simply cluster everything in one place Of course they can. Why can't they? They have chosen not to. We can agree on that. But you think they can't? Why not? What do you think people did before cars?

maccard 9y ago

All of your complaints are US centric. I'm visiting the US right now for the first time, and it's incredible how reliant on cars you are. We had to drive for dinner tonight, and we did not see _one_ pedestrian. In the UK, a 10 mile radius will probably encompass 4 or 5 different towns, each of which will have their own centre, and will provide _most_ of what you require, and public transport is sufficient for most people (there will always be exceptions). > A life without personal cars would be a rather limited and even serfish one. I invite you to come and live in the UK. Many of the cities, and even towns, are perfectly liveable in without personal cars. Yes there are things you can do with a personal car that you can't do without one, but that applies to most products in our lives.

fulafel 9y ago

Is there an argument against "not owning a car is virtuous" here? "The world owes me year round luxury climate controlled transport in Maine"? Daily private car use is nearly always ecologically unsustainable. Refraining from selfish acts, and accepting some discomfort, to benefit others is pretty close to the dictionary definition of virtuous.